Push Ups

[ScoutNut]

Granted push-ups are not "flogging".

 

However, per the BSA -

 

"Discipline used in Scouting should be constructive and reflect Scouting's values. Corporal punishment is never permitted."

 

 

Definition of "corporal" from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary -

 

"Of, relating to, or affecting the body"

 

 

Definition of "corporal punishment" -

 

"The infliction of physical pain upon a person's body as punishment for a crime or infraction."

 

 

You can use whatever convoluted logic or selective reading you want to convince youself that push-ups, as a punishment, are a fine thing. They are not. At the VERY least, they don't follow BSA's rules for punishment to be "constructive and reflect Scouting's values".

 

 

CMpack58, If you sons feel up to a confrontation, have them step forward & intervene the next time your Troop's "Senior Scouts" start to pull this kind of stuff. They should let them know that what they are doing is against BSA policy & wrong. It will take courage on your boys part to stand up to the older boys & their SM, but IMO, it will teach them that you do not just sit back & say/do nothing when you see someone doing something that you know is wrong.

 

Meanwhile, look for a different Troop that respects it's youth members & follows BSA policy. Let us know what happens & good luck!

 

[Chippewa29]

I personally don't think that handing out pushups is a great solutions to disciplinary problems. If you really believe that push ups and other forms of physical activity are corporal punishment, then in order for a Scout to get his Tenderfoot, he has to have corporal punishment inflicted upon him. When doing physical fitness testing with our younger Scouts, I've had some who don't want to do it (usually the ones that are the least fit) and I've made them do the pushups, sit ups, etc. Is that really wrong?

 

My favorite punishment was about ten years ago when on a campout on a hot summer night. We let the kids stay up until midnight because of the heat. However, a few of them were still being very loud after they went to bed (I could hear them even though my tent was fifty yards away). After two warnings, I told them that if I heard them again, they would be in trouble. Sure enough, two minutes later, they were at it again. I made them get out of their tent and move a picnic table (loaded with a patrol box on top) from our site to the edge of the camp (about 70 yards). Then, I made them move it back. They thought it was funny and were laughing the whole time (they were all 14-15 years old). Then, I made them do it again. This time, they were grumbling the whole time. Then, I made them do it a third time. That time, they were completely quiet and were starting to breathe pretty heavily. After the third time, I made a deal with them: they could either let me sleep by being quiet or if I was going to be awake anyway, they could keep moving the picnic table back and forth. We were all asleep a few minutes later. Their parents thought the punishment was hilarious and the kids kept quiet from then on.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Scout Nut,

 

I think pushups in the context e are discussing clearly is intended to be constructive, a reminder to boys that certain behavior is wrong.

 

I suppose we can argue about what the BSA means by it's prohibition on corporal punishment. I think we agree that flogging is out. I don't think your have made a concing case that pushups are out.

 

If they had said that any form of punishment is prohibited, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don't see any suggestions in the Scoutmaster's Handbook for using pushups, nor do I recall such methods being recommended in training. Neither do I recall them being ruled off limits.

 

As to your proposal to make an issue about this within a Troop, I would have no objection to that, although a much better way would be for the parent to raise this issue at a Troop Commmittee meeting and decide on a Troop policy.

 

Finding a definitive answer on how Scouting rules should be interpreted should be your first objective. I again suggest that the Guide to Safe Scouting rules aren't clear on this issue, in my opinion.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[ScoutNut]

Push-ups used as punishment is not constructive.

 

The Troop CMpack58's (original poster) boys belong to has lost boys because of this.

 

I asked my 16 yr old Scout his opinion on push-ups used as punishment. His answer was - "Boy Scouts is not boot camp. There is no place for that in a Scout Troop."

 

That's definitive enough for me.

 

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello again, Scout Nut,

 

 

As I'm sure you are aware, stating an opinion doesn't make it true.

 

But you and your sons are both welcome to yours. I even agree with it, as a general rule. I think I mentioned I don't have occasion to use such methods myself. But I found no reason to rebuke the Merit Badge Counsellor I encountered giving Scouts in my Troop pushups to do for misbehaving in her Merit Badge class ---they had already been tossed out of a Cooking Merit Badge class.

 

If you can find clear and unambiguous Scout rules on the subject, I'd be glad to hear about it.

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

SP. since you have ignored me twice, I guess I have to ask a more universal question. When issues like this come up, such as push-up, cleaning latrines, etc. as punishment, the argument for this type of punishment is always "but they have to be taught actions have consequences." And I dont see anyone on the opposite side, those who oppose punishments such as push-ups saying that actions have no consequences, only that as Madkins points out, not doing pushups mean you may have to think thorugh a problem rather than a mindless command of gimme 20

 

I dont see anyone arguing against consequnces, I do see dissagreement over whats an accpetble consequnce is

[packsaddle]

I once observed my commanding general order my commanding colonel to 'gimme 10' in front of a civilian audience when the colonel didn't answer something to the general's satisfaction. I am bringing this discussion to the general's attention for his education.

[Hunt]

"I once observed my commanding general order my commanding colonel to 'gimme 10' in front of a civilian audience when the colonel didn't answer something to the general's satisfaction. I am bringing this discussion to the general's attention for his education."

 

This is a great example because it exemplifies what is wrong with this form of discipline--it is all about the superior's power over the subordinate. It teaches nothing except a reminder of who's boss. It has a strong possibility of being humiliating. It sends a negative message to outside observers about what the organization is all about. (Do you think the general was a good recruiter?)

 

Personally, I think the best, most educational, and most effective form of punishment is the denial of a benefit related to the infraction.

[ompahsong]

I agree with Seattle Pioneer It builds character. My troop used push ups for goof-ups and I did push ups till my arms fell off. But , you know what , I did earn my Eagle and two palms. I came back to my troop as an adult leader and took the boys to summer camp and I also used push ups for goof-ups. I have modified it a little and hopefully this will work with you younger, kinder and gentler leaders. I do the push ups WITH the boys. If its just one or the whole troop. I count , vary the up and down ( stay down position longer or shorter) and oh yes, always smiling faces." Come on now let's see a big grin . I want to see those pearly whites."

This does a couple of things,first you freak them out cause your doing them with them, next, your not standing over them like a D.I., next, they're not going to let some old man do more than them, and somewhere in there you are able to form a good relationship with them that causes them to want to do the right thing because it's right , not for fear of discipline. Life is hard. Boy Scouts is training for a boy to learn how to be a man in real life. Let us all keep our eyes on that goal, which ever way we choose to instruct.

[acco40]

In the world of testosterone laden men, doing push-ups on command is a power issue. Do teachers request public school students to perform push-ups for misbehavior? Scoutmasters, if one of your SAs or members of the committee did not perform their duties to your satisfaction would you request they perform push-ups? If your COR attended one of your meetings and noticed that one of your scouts did not have the official BSA pants/shorts on and then proceeded to dress you down because you, the Scoutmaster, were not following the uniform method and ordered you to do 20 push[ups would you feel that was appropriate? If not, why on Earth would you feel it appropriate for your Scouts to do the same?

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Grey Eagle,

 

 

If you don't choose to use punishments in you Scout program, that's certainly fine by me. Frankly, I don't use kybo cleaning or pushups as a punishment either, although I suppose there might come a time when I might want to do so.

 

As I noted, I encountered a summercamp Merit Badge Coumnselor requiring two Scouts I'd brought to camp to do pushups. That didn't offend my sensibilities, even if it might not have been my style.

 

I might add that one of these boys had been suspended from the Troop for a month in June because of stealing money from a tentmate, pushing a much larger Scout and sending him sprawling and spraying a Cub Scout in a Pack we were visiting with deoderant (all on the same weekend campout). Was punishing him for these behaviors wrong? It was, after all, a display of power no different really than requiring pushups.

 

The real bottom line in this discussion to me are the claims that Scouting prohibits punishments such as pushups. I don't see any such prohibition myself in the rules that is clear. On the other hand, such punishments aren't recommended or taught in Scout Leader training either.

 

As far as I can see, such punishments are permitted under Scout rules if they don't violate other provisions, such as those against corporal punishment (flogging).

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

"...Life is hard. Boy Scouts is training for a boy to learn how to be a man in real life..."

 

that right, the sooner the boys learn that might makes right, that bullying someone is a great style of leadership and being abused as a youth makes a wonderfully adjusted adult, the better the whole planet will be...

[Hunt]

I think a major problem with push-ups or similar punishments is that they teach the wrong things. To boys who are weak and shy, it teaches them that if they get out of line in Scouting, they will be humiliated. You can expect these boys to get out of Scouting at the first opportunity. For boys who are strong and/or like to show off in front of the group, it teaches them that misbehavior will bring a "punishment" that they actually enjoy.

 

I think this idea of pushups may come from sports, where it may have some actual connection to the activity going on (i.e., pushups for slacking off in drills).

 

I'd also like to comment on the idea of extra work as punishment. Is this how we want boys to think of tasks? Again, if you have to "punish," by far the best, in my opinion, is to deny the boy something he desires that is linked to the infraction. For example, if a boy can't behave at campouts, the "punishment" is obvious--he doesn't go on the next campout, or he goes home now if it's bad enough.

[OldGreyEagle]

Seattle, have you read my posts? I mean actually read my posts? I have no problem with teaching scouts actions have consequences. I think I said that.

 

lets see,

on Wednesday, 8/3/2005: 1:31:54 PM I posted

 

"...There are more ways to teach that actions have consequences that making somebody do pushups"

 

and on Posted: Sunday, 8/7/2005: 7:27:39 PM I posted

 

"...And I dont see anyone on the opposite side, those who oppose punishments such as push-ups saying that actions have no consequences..."

 

So I struggle to understand why you think I dont want scouts disciplined.

 

If the scout was suspended for a month for stealing still doesnt know how to act, perhaps its time for him to go home for a much longer time.

 

Tell you what, you still havent defined oppresive, perhaps we should give you 50 every hour until you do so.

 

 

[scoutingagain]

Acco,

 

Great post. Those who support the idea of push-ups should consider it. I thought this concept had left scouting and am suprised at the number of leaders that would still support it.

 

SA