If not AP Hill, then where?

[Kahuna]

Farragut would be a great site, except for one thing: There's about 1/2 inch of soil on top of rock there. 35,000 pairs of feet running over it for 10 days or so created a dust cloud that could be seen miles away. You could blow your nose and your handkerchief turned brownish grey. I was sick with a sort of walking pneumonia after the 1969 Jambo. Asmatic kids would never make it. Beautiful location, though.

[mmhardy]

Lets face it the 2010 Jamboree will be the biggest ever. I figure 100K total leaders and scouts. The power of the Internet will be in full force with live feeds from every subcamp. The east cost or west coast are natural selections with it close proximity to the media.

 

8000 acres minimum. I would say Salt Lake City, Utah....past Olympic venue. High LDS support. Better climate this time of year no question.

 

??

[wadahoot]

>>"Why does the Army provide personnel from many military units for the National Jamboree? Why send engineers, telephone specialists, automotive mechanics, physicians and nurses, helicopter pilots and even air traffic controllers for a Boy Scouts of America event? The answer is training.

[nldscout]

You are correct in that the JAMBO is one big recruiting fair for the Military. And Why not?, It hurts nothing talking to them.

 

As to 17yr olds be asked to sign on the dotted line. I am afraid thats another wild story that is simply not true. First off the recruiters are not dumb, they cannot sign a youth up until lots of paperwork and physicals are completed. Second a 17yr old must have parental approval in person to enlist.

[wadahoot]

nldscout - I don't know if they are wild rumors or not - the comments I quoted were directly from 2 on-location Scoutmasters yesterday.

 

I would like to believe they are wrong!

[nldscout]

In 2001 the scouts that attended activities like scoutopia were asked to fill out sign honor and commitment pledge cards and sign the commitment wall sponsored by the Marines. The army guys asked them to fill out and sign similar things.

 

Why some asked? Well where else can you get 30-40K prime youth to give you thier name and address.

 

But active recruiting and enlist kids, not gonna happen. But you better beleive those 16-18 will be getting phone calls.

 

But then thats where a big part of the money the military puts into this is from Recruiting funds.

 

[scouter-mom]

This is in reply to the comments about active recruiting at Jamboree.

 

My older son attended the 2001 Jamboree. He had many conversations with the military perssonel running some events (in spite of missing a few days due to his sub camp being quarantined). At the time I read a comment from the military as being:"What, young men that already wear uniforms, like patches, advancements, and work at being physically fit? Yes, we want them!" My son never recieved phone calls from that source, though. He was 16 then. The local Marine recruiting office "worked" our high school band thoroughly though, and still ocassionally call. That son is now in the USAF as a MP. He also serves as an ASM and accompanied his troop's youth to summer camp.

 

My point is that our youth are exposed to all sorts of influences from sorts of sources. The military can be a resource for some of our youth. Until they are 18 years old, they cannot "sign on the dotted line." They now also have to take and pass the ASVP, have graduated from HS(some branches will not accept GED),pass a background check and more. Even if the young adults make it that far, something could come up at meps (the medical evaluation before shipping to basic)that would exclude them from service.

 

Of course, I was a military brat. My dad was a "lifer" in the US Army, my mom was a "Coastie" (Coast Guard). I am certain that my perspective is influenced by that.

[madkins007]

If we HAVE to move it, this might have come at a good time...

 

With all of the base closures going on, perhaps we could finangle it with some other groups to buy a closed base in the midwest to Rockys area.

 

A recently abandoned military base would seem to offer most of facilities we would need with the least amount of work.

 

Actually... if we had to do this, we MIGHT consider something like...

 

- Locate it someplace that offers many opportunities in the area as well (mountains, kayaking, skiing, day trips or backpacking excursions, etc.) .

- Relocate National there, as well as the ScoutStuff warehouse, Nat'l Scout Museum, etc.

- Locate a high adventure base there

- Create another training center to suppliment Philmont

- Contract with the military to provide services at a reduced cost since it will offer them training and recruitment opportunities

- Rent it out to other groups at other times of the year. Do the Girl Scouts have a high adventure opportunity or Jambo-like activity? How about other youth programs? Surely we could partner with someone or rig up some form of time-sharing.

[packsaddle]

A few observations.

First, the long-term vested interest in APH is showing now showing the risk side of the situation...an entrenched plan is rather inflexible if a change is required. When BSA embarked on the 'private club' strategy, there must have been people who considered this risk. If they did not prepare for it at the time then that's tough. They should have remembered the motto.

Second, regarding the 'training' rationale for military involvement, my experience over years working for the Army cause me to set a red flag when I hear such justifications. I suspect there is a lot more to the 'training' justification, deep below the surface, than appears on the surface. The Army contracts most of such activity in other cases. My antennae sense a rationalization for a decision that has been made elsewhere. Just a thought.

Third, getting back to the flexibility thing, this is actually an opportunity for BSA to show it's stuff, so-to-speak, and come in with a new, innovative plan for these venues. It is a challenge, I admit, but we should be up to it, right? We shouldn't have to rely on big political favors to a private club, right?

[Greeneagle5]

My 3 cents worth of advice would be for BSA INC. to thoroughly re-evaluate and consider several alternate locations for the 2010 Jambo. A more centralized location should be a strong consideration, along with cooler summer temp.s .

 

Fort Leonard Wood in central Missouri has the central location, logistical support, transportation,medical,vast acreage, and security intra-structure needed for such a major international event, but the weather can be just as uncomfortable as AP Hill.

 

What about Ft. Carson in Colorado Springs, Colorado ???? Lot's of space, cooler temps, major transportation/recreation hub, and fantastic scenery.

My Troop was there in the Summer of 2001 and had a great time visiting some of our U.S. Army's elite units as well as Cheyenne Mt (NORAD), Peterson AFB, the US Air Force Academy, and of course, Pikes Peak and the Arkansas River rafting thru Royal Gorge.

G5

 

[FScouter]

"First, the long-term vested interest in APH is showing now showing the risk side of the situation...an entrenched plan is rather inflexible if a change is required. When BSA embarked on the 'private club' strategy, there must have been people who considered this risk. If they did not prepare for it at the time then that's tough. They should have remembered the motto."

 

Sometimes I'm dense. Could someone please elaborate and explain a bit?

What risk does Fort A.P. Hill have that is unique?

What is an entrenched plan? What is inflexible?

What is the private club strategy?

Who did not prepare for what? And who forgot the motto?

 

[Kahuna]

Greeneagle: While I agree that the BSA should be developing alternate jambo sites (and would bet they already are), any military base would be under the same ruling as A.P. Hill. While closed military installations would work, almost any publicly owned venue is likely to be barred by some subsequent ACLU work.

 

FScouter: The risk at AP Hill is what has just happened. The BSA put a lot of money into one site, which is now not going to be available. The assumption is (although I'm not sure it's a correct one) that the BSA put all it's eggs in one basket and has no contingency plan for the loss of facilities at Hill.

 

I am still betting that the higher courts will overrule this judge on the issue. The cases that have made it to the Supreme Court indicate to me, especially if Roberts is on the Court, that they will not see a problem. Still, if I was in the National Office, I would be making phone calls with an atlas open on my desk.

[packsaddle]

Why does it have to be at a military base? There's plenty of space out there in the private domain. One possibility for an alternative: a small town in the wide-open spaces that would like to boost its economy with a huge recurring event. As a model Sturgis, SD might serve as an example. Or perhaps Roswell, NM...that would be an entertaining fit.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Well, I might throw out the idea of using the Owasippe Scout Reservation in Michigan. It is the oldest continuously operating Scout camp in the U.S. It is on a large tract of land. I forget the exact acreage, but it is a big place, and has state forest land continguous to it. The camp is owned by the Chicago Area Council, which is trying to sell the camp because it cannot afford to run it any longer. Making Owasippe the home of Jambo would solve 2 problems. One, it would remove the risk of ever being forced to leave because it is on land owned by BSA. Two, it solves the problem of funding Owasippe.

[madkins007]

Packsaddle-

 

Obviously it does not need to be a base, but old bases WOULD offer the benefit of water, power, and sewer infrastructures, as well as decent buildings in place, roads, parking, etc.

 

Most bases are near enough a town to offer the same benefit you suggest as well.

 

One thing to remember- if we can't do AP Hill in 2010, we only have 5 years to do any basic improvements needed, and I just think that a recently deserted base offers the best chance of that.