If not AP Hill, then where?

[SemperParatus]

I'm not looking to turn this into a political free-for-all about the legitimacy of government sponsorship of the Jamboree. I suspect that with the recent court decision that those at National are at least considering the options in the event the Jambo's tenure at AP Hill is coming to an end.

 

So, excluding federal and state-owned properties, what ideas do folks have about possible privately-owned sites that could be available to handle a Jambo village at nominal charge?

 

Certainly, there are some scout-owned lands that could accomodate such a gathering...Philmont and BRMSR come to mind. How about non-scout owned lands? I understand Ross Perot has quite a compound in Bermuda. My backyard is a tad bit small. Any good ideas from this esteemed group of thinkers?

 

 

[Powhatan]

Though I am always interested in singing the praises of the Blue Ridge Scout Reservation, I dont think I can sell this one...

 

Though we do have 22,000 acres for our camp programs, the majority of flat ground has allready been deceloped into our camping programs. We truly felt the squeeze earlier this summer when we had close to 1800 scouts on the reservation one week. I think 30,000 plus would be stretching it a bit, unless you like sleeping at a 90 degree angle.

 

Let's hope our elected officials can come through and help us retain the use of AP Hill. I suspect the facility improvements at a new site would total near the millions we have allready poured into AP Hill ( and the millions that has been matched by the governement).

 

-Micah

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Why not settle on a more mid America approach (geographically speaking) Anything around Chicago, St Louis or Kansas City? WHy not centralize the location, of else move it around like they used too.

[nldscout]

I doubt that short of another military base you will find a place to beable to accomidate this in todays world. BSA has spent Millions in infastructure that would have to be duplicated. The health department rules would be a nightmare trying to meet. At AP Hill or another Base they have access to Warehousing, billets, Electrical service, hospital, security, fire protection. The list goes on and on. No state park could take this many people, no scout camp cout either.

 

If they do in the end Lose the use of AP HILL they will have to rethink the whole Jambo idea. The cost of attending will sky rocket out of sight.

 

 

Philmont couldn't do it without destroying it.

(This message has been edited by nldscout)

[scoutldr]

A.P. Hill is not out of the question. We just can't spend taxpayers' dollars to support a private club.

[Kahuna]

I think it's likely that the next Jambo will be at A.P. Hill. However, they moved it around for many years prior to settling there, I don't see why they couldn't do that again. State-owned facilities aren't necessarily out. Not all states are under the influence of the ACLU. I'm sure there are some private lands that could be used someplace in the U.S. They had one on a ranch in California in, I think, the sixties. There are a lot of closed military installations and more to be closed. Some of those could be developed as a site. The World Jamboree in Thailand was at an old air force base built by the U.S. during the Viet Nam war.

[nldscout]

While it may seem moving would be easy like they used to. We naw live in a totally different day and age. Have you ever looked at the rules a scout camp must comply with from the states they operate in.

 

Health inspections, water inspections, food, sanitation, the list goes on and on. Since we would be staying for over a few days you would in almost every state fall under those same rules.

 

In NY we keep district and council events under 72 hrs so we don't have to deal with these rules except at long term camps.

 

 

[wadahoot]

In brief, CNN says:

The next gathering is set for 2010, to coincide with the group's 100th anniversary, but it might not be held at Fort A.P. Hill, which has hosted the Jamboree since 1981. A federal judge recently ruled that the Pentagon can no longer financially support the event. If the ruling stands, the Boy Scouts would have to find another location for their next gathering.

 

A lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois contends that the Defense Department's sponsorship violates the First Amendment because the Scouts require members to swear an oath of duty to God.

 

On Tuesday, the Senate took a step toward allowing U.S. military bases to continue to host Boy Scouts events. By 98-0, the Senate approved the measure in a provision that's part of a bill setting Defense Department policy for next year. (Full story)

 

In exchange for getting use of the Army training base, the Scouts have spent about $20 million on base improvements that include road paving and plumbing upgrades. The Army says it uses the Jamboree as an opportunity to train personnel in crowd control, communications and other logistical skills.

 

Here is a much longer article: http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/26/congress.boyscouts.ap/index.html

 

[scoutldr]

The SCOUTS have spent $20 million on base improvements???? That can't be right.

[Fuzzy Bear]

This large of a gathering clearly violates Leave No Trace and the Conservation Code but I am also sure pointing it out also violates the Sacred Cow Code.

FB

[scoutingagain]

I'm pretty sure I read the Jamboree site is set up on an area of approx. 3000 acres withing the much larger base.

 

Government sites are not out, they just can't be set aside for the exclusive use of the Boy Scouts, or use Government funding, unless some of the legislation that's been pointed out is passed and upheld. (I'm certain it will be challenged.)

 

I also find it hard to believe the scouts have invested $20million in the site, unless that includes a value that's been added for service projects or volunteer labor. I find it hard to believe it's all cash.

 

Here in New England there's Mass Military Reservation, that is on the potential closure list. It's 22,000 acres on Cape Cod and ajacent to an Air National Guard Base also scheduled for closure.

 

If it is found the government can't support this event, I think it could be held, but might need to be a little shorter and a smaller version. I'm sure there are other sources of funding that could be lined up. You might have to put up with a corporate logo or two though. Something like the Coleman National Scout Jamboree, with EMS, REI, and LL Bean subcamps, a Walmart activity area, and the Pepsico Dining area and Sony entertainment stage. Oh and the Diamond Match Campfire.

 

SA

[nldscout]

20 million is probably right if you consider what they have done over the years. They have installed thier own water lines and sewer lines to campsites. Poured many many concrete pads for temp showers and tent sites, had gravel roads laid, electric and miles of phone and computer lines. Cleared and improved the Arena site. I am sure lots more too. All the Army did was give them the use of a piece of ground and what ever existing facilities that were thier.

 

So 20 Million is probably about right and when you think about it, the army is getting a bargin as they get to use the areas and facilities the other 3 years for free.

[OneHour]

scoutldr, I don't think that $20M was spent on a one-time shot. They've been having Jambo at Fort AP Hill since 1981. Let's assume that $20M is not being spent on this Jambo alone. Just taking into consideration then current dollars, that $20M for the 7 jambos since 1981 or about $2.9M a jambo. Divide that by (let's say) an average of 35,000 scouts per jambo (non-scientific swag) (http://www.hightowertrail.com/Jambo.html) and that will leave National to contribute about $82 per scout per jambo to Fort AP Hill. That's still a hefty amount, but much less than the $20M. Imagine how much it cost to run and maintain the base on an annual basis ... $20M will be pale in comparison, I'm fairly sure.

 

As Fort AP folks put it the best, ...

(http://www.aphill.army.mil/boysscout.asp)

 

"Why does the Army provide personnel from many military units for the National Jamboree? Why send engineers, telephone specialists, automotive mechanics, physicians and nurses, helicopter pilots and even air traffic controllers for a Boy Scouts of America event? The answer is training. The National Jamboree offers the Army an opportunity to sharpen the skills of its Regular, Reserve, and National Guard troops in a major operation containing vast logistical challenges ranging from building roads to installing water, sewer, electrical, and telephone systems for a tent city of 35,000 inhabitants.

 

So, while the jamboree provides once in a lifetime experience for Americas youth, the men and women of the U.S. Army also hone skills to better serve their nation."

 

Do people who oppose to this think that there is an opportunity for the army to train (logistic training in this magnitude) in this environment every day? If there is a major disaster occurs in the US or the world, where do they think that the government would come for expertise? Having worked in a chemical plant before and having gone through actual emergency recovery of the plant, heck yeah ... logistic is an item that's so often overlooked and never get training exposures! When the emergency occurs, that's when people start to regret!(This message has been edited by OneHour)

[stlscouter]

OGE your suggestion of moving the Jambo to a more centralized area is great-travel expenses for all regions would be equalized but (yes thre's always a but) St louis area has about5-6 Scout camps within a fairly small radius (125 miles) the largest is S-F scout ranch which has 5500 acres, next 2200 acres none of which, even with with $20 million improvements could handle 35,000-40,000 of our best. Besides- the proximity to the Nation's Capitol is one of the best things about jambo.

[CubsRgr8]

How about TWO sites - one east and one west? It might be easier to find two sites to accomodate 20,000 instead of one site for 40,000 scouts and scouters. The Cape Cod site sound great. Then that leaves one out west. Hmmm. Not to hot, not too remote, not too high. Beautiful terrain a plus. Sounds like 1969 to me - Farragut State Park, Idaho. From their website:

 

Scouting at Farragut

Because of its size and variety of available activities, Farragut has hosted many large gatherings. These included the National Girl Scout Roundup in 1965, the World Boy Scout Jamboree in 1967 and the National Boy Scout Jamborees of 1969 and 1973. The park has also hosted tens of thousands of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts for regional outings and campouts over the years.

(http://www.idahoparks.org/parks/farragut.html)

 

What do you all think?