Inter-Unit Activities

[Kahuna]

For many years there has been a Sea Scout Regatta in the Tampa Bay area of Florida. Units from all over the Southeast have attended and it has become an institution. Recently, the Gulf Ridge Council advised the host unit that their activity was against the rules as they had not received approval from the council executive, who then must notify the region executive and, if kids from other regions are involved, the national office. That part is pretty clear and the guidelines are found in the Activities and Civic Service Committee Guide pamphlet. That part didn't surprise me and I guess I had always thought they had Council clearance to do the regatta.

 

However, Gulf Ridge Council has also told the unit that any time there is an activity involving two units, even in the same council, permission must be obtained from the Scout executive. They are talking about activities where, for example, a Sea Scout Ship invites a Scout Troop for a day of water activity or instruction.

 

This doesn't sound right to me. An argument could be made, I suppose, that whichever unit is away from it's home base might need a tour permit, but I have never thought a separate permission might be required for units in the same council.

 

Anybody have any experience with councils insisting on permission for inter-unit activities within the same council?

[Eamonn]

Other than the Tour permit, in our Council and District we are very much in favor of inter-unit activities.

We don't have any Sea Scout units, so unless there is some insurance issue that I have never heard about, I fail to see what the big deal is?

Eamonn.

[Kahuna]

The inter-council thing does have an insurance issue. Permission was granted to the Tampa ship to hold the event, but they had to charge a council insurance premium of $4 a head for it. However, I don't see how that would apply to inter-unit events from the same council. I know sometimes they charge a council insurance premium for camporees or whatever, but I'm not sure why the units aren't covered as they would be for any regular activity.

 

BTW, neither the Southeast Region Commodore nor any of the Skippers in the region heard about either of these rules before. The regatta had been going on for about 16 years before Gulf Ridge discovered the discrepancy.

 

Could this be a fund raising thing?

[SeattlePioneer]

I've never heard of special permissions being required as you describe.

 

 

Since I'm involved with a small troop, I'd like to see MORE joint activities between troops. The usual concern is that more attractive Scout programs might siphon off boys from weaker units.

 

Does anyone have experience in working together with other Scout units on outdoor or other activities? This could include Cub Scout packs that might plan joint Pinewood Derby competitions with another Pack, for example.

 

While I think this is a good idea, I see very little of it happening. I've mentioned doing this to packs and troops in the area, but no one seems very interested.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[scoutldr]

When I was involved in training, the course budget always included an "insurance fee" and a "council administrative fee". The latter was allegedly to cover the cost of photocopying, and office staff labor, etc, which I never used. I never did understand the insurance fee (which was like 50 cents per participant), since courses were always involving registered scouters and a neutral location such as a school or church, which I assume have their own insurance coverage should we accidentally set the place on fire from our heated discussions ;-). It must not have been very important, because they are now offering free training for new leaders within 30 days of registration. I agree the SE is always looking for a way to make a buck from every activity. The money has to come from somewhere, but quit milking the volunteers. We are giving enough. Perhaps the youth and their families who benefit from the program should be asked to pay more toward the fair cost, which in our council is estimated to be around $156/youth/year. A $7 registration fee that doesn't even stay local is way inadequate.

[ScoutNut]

This sounds rather fishy to me. What about when a BS Troop invites a Webelos Den, or many Webelos Dens, to one of their Den meetings or an overnighter? That is an activity involving 2 or more units. We have never had to request permission from our SE for any Troop/Pack activites.

 

We have District Cub Fun Days 1 or 2x a year where the boys from different Cub Packs get together for fun activites. There are also District Camporees & Klondikes. I am sure that the SE knows about these, because the District comes up with a bit of money to help with the costs. But, I think that is a different thing.

 

I would give your Council Field Director or Asst SE a call and get the particulars verified.

 

 

[rkfrance]

Is the original unit in question a Crew or a Troop?

 

If it is a Troop, it becomes a District activity, unless those units are from different Districts.

 

It is my understanding, if it is a Crew, ALL activities would fall under Council control (because they would be considered high adventure (whether it is or not), requiring the additional insurance, etc) and would therefore have to have SE approval. Crews may function as part of a District but essentially they are Council entities.

 

I'm definitely lacking in my basics on Crews but that is the way it is described in the National site fact sheets.

[Kahuna]

A Sea Scout unit is a part of Venturing, but I don't really see what difference it makes, if all the units are in the same council and have or don't need tour permits. Our council doesn't seem to have a position on this either way.

 

As a Skipper, I would clear it with council before having a couple of packs of Cubs out for a sail, but just to invite some Scouts for an outing doesn't seem to me to require a permit.

[rkfrance]

From the Venturing fact sheets on scouting.org

 

Liability Insurance. The Boy Scouts of America has liability insurance that covers leaders and organizations to which Venturing crews and ships are chartered. Accident and medical coverage are not included but are available through local BSA councils at a modest cost.

 

This is a basic for the Venturing program. Troops and Packs don't have the same insurance coverage Crews "should" have. Activities conducted by Crews are generally (depending on the activity) going to be more "high adventure" and likely would not be appropriate for Packs and might not be for Troops, particularly those with younger Scouts.

 

It comes down to liability and safe environment. Our SM's aren't familiar with what Crews do and don't do. They might not see an obvious accident waiting to happen, or they might think, this is a BSA activity, we'll be covered. Either way, Scouts outside of Venturing should be made aware of any increased risk and have to go thru additional training "and paperwork" to attend and participate in these activities.

[Kahuna]

I understand the differences in liability of the two programs and referring to joint activities, I am not thinking in terms of inviting young Boy Scouts to participate in high adventure activites. Boy Scouts are allowed to swim, sail, boat and do all the same things that Venture units can. Sea Scout units frequently use teaching skills to Boy Scouts as a service and a recruiting device.

 

Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts are covered by the same liability insurance as Ventures, to the best of my knowledge. There are just some differences in requirements, for example, in aquatic activities. They must wear PFDs at all times and Sea Scouts don't have to. I suppose it makes some sense for council to ensure that all the requirements are being met, but one would think that would be covered by the tour permit.

 

 

[nldscout]

The liability insurance is the same regardless of which program you are in. The is very few things that Troops cannot do that Venturers can, they can do just about everything.

 

The only time the PFD exception for Sea Scouts comes into effect is when they are on a 20ft or longer cruising vessel. Less than 20ft and G2SS prevails.

 

RK,

Just because a trop sponsors an activity that involves more than 1 troop does not mean its a district activity. My troop sponsors a Weekend Canoe trip each year and has for 8 yrs. No district or council involvement. Last year we had 18 troops and Crews and over 250 attend.

 

In our council the crews and SS Ships belong to the district, not the council. Not all crew activities are High Adventure either and Troops can do High adventure like Crews and SS do.

[SMT376Richmond KY]

This happened in our district this spring when we were getting camporee together. Council mandated a 20% contingency fee be placed in the budget which increased the per person rate (yeah even charged Scouters the same as Scouts and they aren't doing the events). When several of our rural Troops balked at the idea and the increased cost it was brought up by one SM to forgoe camporee and just all meet at a local farm that was made available and camp together.

 

That's when this rule was brought to our attention. There were several "old goat" partolers that had never herd of this from council before. We were told in essence that if two Troops applied tour permits for the same place at the same time then we would be asked to pay the additional insurance fee per person and a contingency fee.

 

Left a bad taste is folks mouth can only 3 Troops attended camporee. I since resigned as camporee chair as I didn't feel right balancing the councils budget on the backs of the boys either. We attend if the boys vote for it but they have caught on that we can camp on the farm a lot times during the year and have as much fun with less hassels.

[nldscout]

Everyone keeps refering to Insurance fee. What insurance fee is that. We pay once a year $1.00 per person on our charter. How do others pay and what for? Liability insurance comes from National at no additional charge to councils, and Medical is a once a year fee.

 

And what book is this 2 troop rule in because no one here has heard of it.

 

 

[Kahuna]

I don't know much about insurance, but I suppose the theory is that if you have a bunch of Scouts in one place, the risk is higher than normal that something will happen to one or more of them (which was just shown at the Jamboree, sadly). Still, it seems like a bit of a rip off and when it gets to the point where it prevents activities, it's time to really look at it. Think I'll bring this up at the next

Council Venture meeting.

 

We're talking about the Council liability insurance coverage. The $1.00 a head fee is your medical insurance. Normally included in your registration fees, but added on in case of Council and other events. I gather that Councils can decide what policy they want to follow on this.(This message has been edited by Kahuna)

[nldscout]

Liability insurance according to our council is provided by national to the councils as part of our registration. It is a national policy for first 500K TO 1M, After that the BSA is self insuring. So why are the councils charging all these insurance fee's. Before our merger a few years ago our present council had a policy of adding $1.00 to every attendee at every event, training event, trip for medical insursance. It was a big ripoff for active troops and packs. The worse thing was they covered everyone anyway. We raised so much noise that the new CE changed it to a once a year $1.00 payment.

 

So my question still is why are some councils charging up to $4.00 per event? For what???