Spreading the Word

[CNYScouter]

I recently posted asking How do other methods support the Patrol Method?.

I was very disappointed on that I only got one response thanks EagleInKY

 

I see all sorts of responses about not following the program and the program being too Loosey-Goosey but when I ask a question on how to follow the program, I get very little in the way of answers.

 

How can I spread the word on using the program when I dont fully understand it.

I asked this question to learn how to better understand the program and help to train others in using the 8 methods to achieve the Aims of Scouting.

 

Perhaps the program has come too complex to understand and nobody understands the program.

Did EagleInKY say it all?

Maybe the answer is obvious and I just dont get it?

 

I find it hard to believe that all of the outspoken members here on the forum didnt have more to say on this subject.

 

[johndaigler]

Sorry, CNYS, this outspoken member shies away from discussing the Methods. I'm just a lowly Cub Scouter. I'm an avid reader though, so I hope you get more replies. Even when people disagree, the discussions always teach me something.

 

jd

[cajuncody]

Sorry for your lack of response. I am not all that familiar with the patrol method as I work with Cubs and my oldest is just now a Bear. I do read all of the other posts, not just the Cub program posts, to learn about the program for my son in a few years but I don't consider myself qualified to answer that question. Don't lose heart!

Kristi

[Beavah]

How do other methods support the Patrol Method? They don't necessarily. The purpose of the Methods is to get to the Goals of Scouting... fitness, character, and citizenship. So the real question is probably more like "How do different units use the Patrol Method to help kids build character, grow more physically and mentally fit, and become better citizens?"

 

Sure, the methods sometimes work together. Adult Relationships Method includes helping "coach" patrol leaders, being an example to PL's and others, etc. The Uniform Method helps provide outward "signs" of patrol membership through common T-shirts, "colors," and patrol patches. The Outdoor Method puts patrols in an environment where they have to work together for their own comfort, well-being, and fun. Youth Leadership Method is pretty obvious in its relations to patrols. Advancement Method isn't... unless your patrols are mixed-age, so that boys seek advancement opportunities within their patrol, from other patrol members.

 

[Bob White]

CNY,

You do not give yourself enough credit for what you know, even if you do not realize you know it. The vast majority of the things you have written regarding the program are right on the mark. I believe you have a far better understanding of the scouting program than you might realize.

 

You also have gotten a pretty good grasp on this forum whether you realize it or not. You wonder why your question did not get more responses but then you also observed the fact that "I see all sorts of responses about not following the program and the program being too Loosey-Goosey but when I ask a question on how to follow the program, I get very little in the way of answers."

 

By know you have figured out why that is. There are perhaps 12 posters here (you among them) who actually understand and or use the scouting program successfully. Most are are scouters who have not yet grasped the program, Some come here to learn. Many find comfort in the company of others willing to blame the BSA, parents, kids, peers, coaches or ANYBODY other than themselves. I do not believe they are in any way incapable of good scouting. They are either inexperienced and learning, or they are so set in their habits that they would rather be wrong than change.

 

How do you spread the word? As best you can to those who will listen, with the others "shake the dust from your sandals and leave".

 

As far as the patrol method. As soon as I wrap up some paperwork from my day I will post to that thread. See you there.

 

BW

 

 

 

 

[ASM59]

Hello,

 

We have had similar struggles to get "on board" with the whole program. I know where you are coming from; had all the required training, but still confused about how to implement it.

 

I saw a book mentioned here in one of the forums:

"The Scoutmaster's Other Handbook" by Mark A. Ray

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0965120732/

 

Reading his take of implementing the patrol method and others, was somewhat ground-breaking for our Troop. When I read the book, I recognized things that were called out in training, but the way he explained them and the examples he gave seemed to make much more sense.

 

I think there is something to say about the way BSA delivers some of the training and how useful that training is. I know people who find the training most useful; but thats because they are a part of a Troop that is functioning (or at least attempting to) properly. Consider my case, where I started as an ASM in a Troop that was not boy lead but totally SM lead. Then, with a leadership change, we found ourselves with all new adult leadership (Committee and Scoutmasters). I think we are on the right track now, but have a way to go. Again, I think some of the examples and explanations in the above mentioned book will continue to help us.

 

ASM59

 

[ASM59]

To echo what BW said, there are those who come here to learn. I have learned much by hanging around here, mostly reading posts. We seem to be having "fun" in our Troop for the first time; it's not as much a struggle now. I credit that fun to getting things in their proper place according to the way set forth in the BSA materials and training. And I must credit a lot of our being able to do that to the advise of members here (at least the 12 that BW mentioned).

 

In re-reading my last post, I want to explain that I was not intending to slam the BSA training as much as my own perception or inability to implement the training. Maybe there needs to be a special training seminar for people coming from my background. It was hard to grasp hold of the concepts when they were so opposed to the way we "had always done things". It is scary to make such radical changes, and there in lies the problem and why people find it so hard to implement and so easy to resist (IMHO).

 

ASM59

[CNYScouter]

I have purchased "The Scoutmaster's Other Handbook" by Mark A. Ray.

I already read it.

And I have already passed it on to another leader in the troop to read it.

 

I have to say that that I understand when it is said that the 8 methods are the tools to use to achieve the Aims of Scouting.

When it is said that these methods should be applied and worked with on an equal basis tells me that they are all inter-related.

W hat I get from looking at the methods and figuring out how they are related and how they each help to reinforce one another, I can easily see that you do not need anything else but these 8 methods to achieve the Aims of Scouting

From these relationships, it is clear to me that if you focus on only some of the methods, some of the other methods will not be effective.

 

The difficultly is seeing all the relationships between the methods and trying to explain to others how the methods all work together, equally to achieve the Aims of Scouting.

 

 

[Bob White]

How they work together is really dependent on the task at hand. Think of it as a tool box. As a woodworker I often use the same basic selection of tools on nearly every project I build, How much I use eac one varies with the specific piece I am working on.

[CNYScouter]

BW-

 

I really like the woodworking and toolbox analogy.

I'll have to borrow this when I try to explain the use of methods

 

Thanks

 

CNYScouter

[dkurtenbach]

I would suggest that you don't have to spend time and energy figuring out _how_ the Methods work together. You just have to make sure that each of the Methods is in place. If they are all "plugged in," they work together automatically and the "machine" runs smoothly. It is when a component is missing or broken that you get the clanking, vibrating, and whining.

 

Where a lot of units get into trouble is when they assume that one of the components is not necessary for the machine to run smoothly, or that a substitute piece (either from another manufacturer, or jury-rigged by one of the leaders) will work just as well.

 

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to operate the Scouting program; in large part, you just need to be able to follow instructions. (Caveat: There are those who believe that, regardless of how well the program itself is implemented, you must still have leaders with certain personalities and characteristics -- "the right sort" -- to have a great Scouting program.) We encounter this every day. We don't know how every part of a car works with every other part, but we follow operating instructions to open the door, get the car started, get it moving, turn it left and right, and make it go faster and slower. Any time we buy something that says "Some Assembly Required," we have in front of us a jumble of various parts. To put the item together properly, we follow the instructions. The same is true for Scouting.

 

You know what the Methods are and what they look like. And plugging each one is a relatively simple matter of following the instructions and doing each of the steps and tasks set out in the books. For example, to implement the Uniform Method, pretty much all that is required is for each Scout and leader to acquire a complete uniform, attach all badges and insignia in their proper places, and wear the uniforms to meetings and other appropriate occasions. Simple. But that isn't the real problem, is it? I think the real question you are asking is, "How do I get everyone in the Troop to understand and agree that we need to implement all of the Methods of the Boy Scouting program as recommended by BSA?" Put another way, "How do I convince everyone to follow the instructions?"

 

Dan K

[juris]

Gny-syracuse Scouter:What is a Patrol?, it's gang of kids. Some are bad gangs and some are good gangs,led by an 'Alpha " leader. They don't get elected ,,but every one in the gang agree's him to lead this group.( similar to a scout patrol.) A gang learns by having similar activities like vandelizing or playing sports.In BSA,Inc concept is that we can create and train these 10 1/2 year boys into smooth running Patrols, overnight by having them elect their popular peer. I found out ,by trial and error, that most likely, his concept does not work....., and with all the guidence available.Once you have a very succesful recruitment :

A...Organize the group with their friends,

B...Assign temporary an older, mature, high ranking ( Who wears his uniform )Scout.Set up regular briefing meetings with this selected leader.. After a period of time the, boys in the new patrol ,who achieve, good attendance and rank,are presented to this Patrol,.... as qualified to be a leader.This prevents the popularity and less motivated boy to lead this new Patrol.

I found, that this method of organizing a Patrol is the best .Otherwise the new Scouts lose interest in this new disorganized Patrol and Troop,....leave to join street gangs, where they have better "Alpha" leaders ,rather then the neophyte PL they have chosen. (Training courses don't teach this way )

Here I go again, writing a book. I would suggest, break down fincialy, take and pay for few adult training courses. You can always learn something new, and then you can experiment for yourself as I did, what works and what does not.. (Read some of my posts, to know where I am coming from ) Juris, www

[CNYScouter]

Dkurtenbach

 

You have stated the exact problem I am facing. The other leaders in the Troop feel that one of the components is not necessary for the machine to run smoothly or that a substitute piece will work just as well.

 

You say that we should just follow the program and that we dont need to know the hows and whys. But the group of people I am working with, they are Doctors, Lawyers, CPAs and CEOs. We have an ASM who designs advanced weaponry systems for the military and our SM is the head of Food Service in the largest School district in the area. This people have been trained not take things at face value, to question every thing and need to now the hows and whys before they.

 

From the last meeting we had I can see that these other leaders are treating the methods as if they are each a stand-alone concept. They do not see that they are all related and you need all the pieces in place to make things work.

 

Personally I am interested in the hows and whys of the methods and want to expand energy to increase my knowledge in the area of scouting.

I find the complex inter-relationships between the methods interesting and if I can better understand how the methods are related I feel I can try to present a better program.

I cannot find anywhere that discusses these relationships so I asked about these on this forum.

 

I have been given two tasks for this summer and will be presenting these at a committee meeting at the end of Aug..

The first is to present a detailed plan on the patrol method and how to improve on it in the Troop.

The second is to present a detailed plan on how to improve youth leadership in the Troop.

 

I wont get very far in trying to convince other leaders to use the methods if my only plan is to tell them to Follow the Program.

 

My goal is to show how to use the methods of scouting to improve each of these.

For the patrol method

I want to begin the plan with a short bulleted list on keys to understand the patrol method

I then want to show how each method supports the patrol method

Next, I want to give ways to improve patrol identity in the Troop.

First, with overall ways such as earning the Honor Patrol Award and doing patrol outings.

I then want to present specific things to do or not to do to improve the patrol method.

 

I want to do something similar with improving leadership.

 

CNYScouter

[dkurtenbach]

A follow-up to my last post on this issue.

 

Just my opinion, of course, but it seems to me that the underlying reason for most problems implementing the Scouting program has nothing to do with the program itself; rather, it is simple human weakness.

 

We don't like the uniform pants, so we don't wear them. The SPL and the Patrol Leaders have pretty busy schedules, so we don't have regular PLC meetings. It is hard and very inefficient to sit back and watch boys goof around, not get things done, take forever to do simple tasks, and fail, so the adults plan and run things. Our adults really don't know anything about backpacking and aren't interested in learning about it, so we don't do "adventurous" stuff like that. Parents complain, so we make concessions to them. Boys beg to play basketball instead of doing a first aid competition, so we give in. We only have two boys from one patrol, one from another patrol, and five from a third patrol going on a campout, so its just easier and more convenient to combine them into one patrol for the outing. We're embarassed to talk about things like personal character and doing our religious duties, so we sort of skip over the Ideals other than reciting the Pledge of Allegiance and the Oath and Law. It's a pain to find a pool and organize swim tests before the big canoe trip, so we'll skip that and assume that anyone with the Swimming Merit Badge is fit to go (even if it was earned 5 years and 75 pounds ago). Big Jim, who was Scoutmaster for twenty years, always did it THIS way, and it worked for him, so we're not going to change it. Cooking and cleaning up on Sunday morning take a long time and we all want to get home, so we'll just stop at McDonald's for breakfast on Sunday mornings.

 

Keep in mind that we can be subject to the same weaknesses. We may absolutely know that the troop has a problem with the Patrol Method. But if we think patrol flags are stupid and we shouldn't use them, can we really get the problem fixed?

 

Most of the difficulty we have getting a unit turned around or fixing particular problems has nothing to do with the program itself; rather, it is overcoming the "reasons" why the troop deviates from the program. People are people, and with few exceptions we don't have the luxury of just ordering them around and making changes as we see fit, even if it is to get the unit aligned with the Scouting program. Therefore, we are left with using the many tools of persuasion, mixed with prudence, time, and patience, to get our units on track.

 

(The point of the Loosey-Goosey thread, by the way, is to suggest the use of a particular tool of persuasion: the idea that there is Only One Right Way.)

 

I would suggest starting by listing the various "exceptions" to the "model" that your troop practices. Then pick one to work on. Study the books and know (and lay out on a chart) the steps and tasks that must be accomplished for that Method to work. Then work on each step or task, one at a time. Each step, task, and Method may require working on different people, using different means of persuasion, to get it accomplished. It may take a very long time. Keep in mind that one powerful tool of persuasion is trust -- that folks will do what you want them to do because they like you, they believe you know what you are doing, they know you have the backing of other people they like and respect. This particular tool is often not available to "the new guy," particularly the new guy who comes in and wants to shake things up, criticizes the current "management," and won't give the existing system a chance.

 

Dan K

 

[dkurtenbach]

CNYScouter, following up specifically on your last post --

 

By all means, study how the Methods interact all you want; certainly it will help you grow in understanding an appreciation of the program, and will certainly help you to persuade some folks.

 

However, with the crowd you describe, I think you need to do something in addition to developing a well-thought-out, rational argument and plan for following the Patrol Method. You need to know and understand why they don't do it now. Those "reasons" may have nothing to do with the intellectual framework of the Scouting program and the interrelationship of the Methods. And if they don't, your argument and plan will fall on deaf ears. Your argument and plan have to address the interests, concerns, and experiences of the leadership who have fostered the current system.

 

Dan K