Is Boy Scouting Too Loosey-Goosey?

[Beavah]

With Juris, I vote in favor of Loosey-Goosey. Maybe I just like the freedom and beauty of a flying goose.

 

I'm CC in a unit with a good CO relationship. The CO and COR are involved in unit financial oversight, committee member selection, and leader selection and training. Most of our troop ASMs are non-parents (former scouts, CO and community volunteers). In that way, we follow the BSA model better than most units mentioned here.

 

Aside from that, we're loosey-goosey. Our unit leaders and PLC adapt BSA materials to meet their needs all the time. Two months ago, I sat on a Life BOR for a PL (now SPL) who said "It is so much better here for the 1st-year scouts who are in regular patrols. In the troop I transferred from, we had to be in a new scout patrol and just work on first class. It was really bad... 12 guys who didn't know what they were doing all together, with only this Troop Guide to help." So in that way we don't follow the BSA model, and have happier younger scouts, and older boys with a greater commitment to mentoring.

 

We don't do camporees; the kids prefer to plan their own outings. The kids do outing budgeting, not the committee. The committee doesn't meet monthly. We don't have a UC. Uniforming is fairly relaxed in-house but pretty good for public events, though you'll never see us camping in dress beige. We don't follow the BSA NCS summer camp example of lecturing kids on rules and regulations for hours at a time. We don't allow FOS at Courts of Honor, which are for the kids. Adult relationships with kids are very strong... it's not unusual for the SM to be doing math tutoring on the side for kids who need it, for the ASM to pay boys to work on his land, etc. We don't do chuck-box and trailer car camping. We tried to use BSA program features for meetings a couple times, and abandoned those as both "too young" and unworkable. Instead, the kids plan and run our meetings by patrol.

 

We are the largest and most active troop in our town.

 

If we were faced with a choice between being shoehorned into the BSA model and giving up our charter, we would give up our charter.

 

Three cheers for loosey-goosey!

 

Boston Beavah

 

 

[FScouter]

Beavah, welcome to the forums!

Sounds like you're closer to the "BSA model" and not so loosey-goosey as you think. Clearly, you have some misconceptions about Scouting methods.

 

" 'In the troop I transferred from, we had to be in a new scout patrol and just work on first class. It was really bad... 12 guys who didn't know what they were doing all together, with only this Troop Guide to help.' So in that way we don't follow the BSA model ..."

 

12 boys in a patrol is not the BSA model. 6-8 is.

Only a TG is not the BSA model. Need an assistant Scoutmaster assigned to the new Scout patrol in addition to a TG. Only work on first class? That's not the model either, though working on rank requirements (not exclusively) is.

 

"We don't follow the BSA NCS summer camp example of lecturing kids on rules and regulations for hours at a time."

Lecturing is not the BSA model either.

 

"...you'll never see us camping in dress beige."

Camping in the field uniform is not the BSA model.

 

"We don't allow FOS at Courts of Honor, which are for the kids."

FOS at a COH is not the BSA model either.

 

"We don't do chuck-box and trailer car camping."

Not the BSA model either.

 

"Instead, the kids plan and run our meetings by patrol."

Meetings planned by the PLC IS the BSA model.

 

"If we were faced with a choice between being shoehorned into the BSA model and giving up our charter, we would give up our charter."

Why would you think you would ever be faced with a choice like that? You're already pretty much doing the "BSA model".

 

[dkurtenbach]

FScouter, thanks for saying it better than I could. What Beavah's post points out is that so much "non-model" Scouting is being done out there -- even at the District level and at summer camps -- that these poor Scouting behaviors are being mistaken for the "model."

 

Dan K

[evmori]

WOW! Never knew chuck boxes were part of the BSA model! And camping not in uniform is part of the model? I though 10-12 was the optimum size the BSA recommended for patrols?(This message has been edited by evmori)

[CNYScouter]

My real issue with these Loosey-Goosey Troops are ones where the leaders complain that the Scouts don't want to be leaders but don't use the patrol method and do everything for them.

 

These leaders plan outings on what they want to do and then complain when they have to cancel a trip when no Scouts are interested in going.

 

These trips they plan are all geared towards older scouts and yet they complain that kids don't stay in scouts anymore when they quit shortly after joining.

 

These leaders complain that the Scouts won't wear the uniform when they refuse to wear them.

 

These same leaders decide that only half the Scouting concepts are important and then can't understand why kids do not seem enthused about Scouting.

 

These are real and this is what I experianced in one Troop.

 

 

 

 

[bbng]

Welcome Beavah. FScouter said it well, so rather than reiterate it, I'll simply say ditto

[bbng]

CNY: you describe a troop I know of. Could it be we both experienced the same troop at one time???

 

Additionally, the unit leaders have lists of justifications for doing things their way. They have no confidence in the youth's ability to plan an event or even a meeting, and that says two things to me. One, they're not there for the youth. Two, the youth won't have a chance to develop confidence and new skills. Interestingly enough, boys do quit units like this, or they stay but don't advance or even feel part of the unit, so they are more just on paper than part of the unit. These the unit leaders don't see the unit as a problem; rather, they find some fault with the youth, saying the unit is better off without that boy or the boy will get with it soon or as one said, "hey, they know where to find me, I'm sure not going after them". When the program is centered around adult choices and desires, the youth miss out big time. And when there are only parts of the program that are used, it is usually because of an adult, not because of the youth.

 

I'm not so sure BSA is loosey-goosey, but with leaders like this--who keep units alive if not necessarily fun (I honestly wonder at the attraction there)--perhaps that is the problem. I tend to see it more of an individual responsibility issue though, and as has been discussed here at times, part of that is getting unit leaders to read the books. If the unit leader is committed to delivering the program as intended, it will happen. If the leader doesn't know how to, that can be remedied if s(he) attends RT, training, has a relationship with the UC. If the leader doens't want to follow the program, it doesn't seem anything short of removing the leader will fix the problem. But that's just my take on this, and there would be problems with that too--ever notice how a "rebel" leader tends to have a following? It seems no matter who else cares about the unit (CO, DE, UC), it's the individual leaders who need to be sold out on Scouting. Sadly, many aren't. Happily, many many more are.

[juris]

Scout "Beavah" I certainly would like to have you in my unit, if I still were a SM. But, I am retired. You have a very understanding SM,who knows how to guide you to be successfull unit. Give him 3 cheers.In my past experience at PLC meetings, we sometimes had a lot of suggestion and motions. Once every thing was done, it was my job to make sure all our small and high adventure was put into action by our committee. I we failed, then no one could blame the jr. leaders for it. Some times, the adults try to blame plc council for failurs. This never happened in my prevous unit. Thanks in supporting my ideas. Remember my motto " Keep it simple, make it fun "

[johndaigler]

At the risk of having to come back tomorrow and moderate myself...

 

"...Thanks in supporting my ideas. Remember my motto " Keep it simple, make it fun "... "

 

Juris, I thought you said you had 38 yrs. experience - you seem to be taking credit for 95!

 

jd

 

[Beavah]

LOL!

 

Yah, well, OK. Maybe not Loosey-Goosey... maybe "cafeteria scouting" or "wild goosey."

 

Let me see...

 

No new scout patrol. No real emphasis on 1st class in a year. No UC. Don't use troop program features. Weak in-house uniforming; no official pants. Well, dat may be it. Still sounds like da sort of "adaptation" that everyone here seems up in arms about.

 

If I were to be honest...

 

The Ideals: We're OK, not as strong as we were a few years ago. Current SM doesn't keep the Oath and Law front-and-center as much.

 

Patrol Method: Pretty good, better than we've been in the past. Meetings are 95% by patrol (5% whole troop announcements/opening/closing). Camping is always by patrol; some patrol outings but still most campouts are done as a troop.

 

Outdoors: Very strong, lots of activities, run all summer, etc.

 

Advancement: Ah... OK. Not an emphasis. We use it, it works for some kids. Have a couple Eagles a year. Not a badge mill for sure. Some 17 year old Tenderfoots.

 

Adult Association: Strongly emphasized, works well. Deliberately recruit young adults who have good rapport with kids.

 

Personal Growth: I never did figure out what this one meant. Yah, our kids grow, and we really care about dem learning, eh?

 

Leadership: Yah, we're mostly youth run. PLC chooses events, boys plan events, PLs run patrols.

 

Uniform: Nah. Ever since the PLC really took ownership of meeting plans, we do most of them outside, where the "field uniform" doesn't belong. Usually da guys are pretty good about dragging a uniform shirt out for public events, with some pair of olive-ish pants.

 

Alright, so not too bad. But still enough violations to be sent to Scouter Jail. You guys are pretty kind, though... maybe I can get by with a fine of a woodchuck bead?

[bbng]

So, out of curiosity, did the ideals begin to move out of front and center when a choice was made to adjust the program?

[Beavah]

Nah, we've always adapted the program according to the strengths of the adults and the input of the youth.

 

Ideals moved a bit out of front-and-center because of the strengths and weaknesses of the current SM. The ideals moving out of front-and -center and the slack in uniforming corresponds most directly to the dramatic improvement in the use of the patrol method and further improvements in the leadership method brought by the current SM.

 

It's a good example of the tradeoffs that come with individual strengths and development, when ya think about it. PL's doing their job and taking lead means less adult-run "Scout Law" talk (and the SM don't like doing that kind of talk because he ain't good at it). Youth-run outdoor meetings by patrol means less uniforming at meetings, 'cause they're swimmin and paddlin and orienteerin', not dressin' up.

 

Beavah

[scouter9933]

Ok, I've been reading all your posts about Loosey-Goosey Troops and I can see all the different points of view from all the different "jobs" in scouting I've had. My problem, as a new COR, is that the current SM is just 'making time', but doesn't want to let go... He doesn't follow the training, doesn't want COR or CC interferring, yet we're losing boys and not getting any new ones into the troop. Now, as COR and, with the CC and the Pastor, we want to replace the scoutmaster and we've been trying to find guidelines for this, and I've been reading your posts about Loosey Goosey troops and I thought 'BINGO', here we go and this is part of the problem. I do attend the Church, I'm the COR and I was the CC before, when we first founded the troop. We got off to a great start, and then things happened, and it's been going downhill since then. Now, how do we 'rein' it in and fix the situation... And go back to what the troop was originally aiming for?

 

HG - Chicago

[Bob White]

As the COR you are the head of the scouting department for any and all scout units in the charter organization. Do want you think needs to be done. If it is to re[lace the scoutmaster then do it. Sekect and register a new leader remove the cuirrent one with a thank you and get the program back on track. Your responsibility is to the scouts and the scouting program.

 

I hope things improve quickly for you.

 

Once things are back on track be sure to contact the boys who left and invite them back.

 

BW

[CNYScouter]

Bbng I couldnt agree more with what you are saying.

 

Beavah-

You have made my point about adult leaders not understanding the relationships between the 8 methods of scouting.

 

You say that your Troop is good about leadership and the patrol method. These two methods are closely related. You will not have good success in using one without the other.

You also say that you are weak in Uniform and Ideals method. Arent these two methods closely related? Isnt one reason we wear the Uniform to show that we follow the Ideals.

 

Isnt another reason we wear the uniform is to demonstrate leadership? If the older Scouts are all wearing a full uniform wont the younger ones follow? Isnt this the way Scouting demonstrates on how to lead by example and being a role model? Arent we reinforcing the leadership method by having our Scouts wear a uniform?

 

If you dont understand the Personal Growth method, why arent you going out and trying to understand what it means? I havent seen you post any questions trying to find this out.

 

I can also see that you have done what many other adult leaders have done and take the easy way out. If you have identified your Troops strength and weaknesses, why arent you working on the weaknesses? I know its much easier to concentrate on the strengths but a good leader understands that to grow you must spend the time working on areas where you are weak.

 

In another topic, you stated that I said that the new unit we were in was the BEST troop I could find out of 9 choices. Just because this was the best choice from 9 poor to mediocre units doesnt make it a good unit, it still is a mediocre one.

 

Hey, but what do I know. I dont have 30+ years in Scouting Ive only been a leader 3 years. And Im not living in the real world as I have been by other adults before.

 

CNYScouter