Is Boy Scouting Too Loosey-Goosey?

Hunt · June 22, 2005

"Then the CO needs to select leaders the same way they choose ministers, teachers, deacons, board members, employees etc."

It's true that organizations tend to select employees in the manner you suggest. However, it's been my experience that many, if not most organizations are reduced to filling volunteer positions by begging. I think it would be extremely unusual for a CO to be able to recruit a scout leader who does not have a boy in the unit--if you're really lucky, you might be able to retain a leader after his own child has aged out. I may be wrong, but I have to think that the vast majority of current scout leaders are people who, like me, got involved because of our sons, and may or may not know that much about the program (or may know about the program as it existed decades ago). That's why I think the focus should be more on leader development than on leader selection.

SR540Beaver · June 22, 2005

Bob,

You are right. That being said, it ain't the way it actually happens much of the time. I know the BSA's method of chartering a troop and selecting leaders. I'm just one guy with my own unique exepriences, but I don't know that they are really that unique. When our boys crossed over and doubled the size of the troop we went to, it didn't take long for us to realize that we really were not wanted there. So being the gung ho sort of scouters we were, we decided to start a new troop rather than join an existing troop after the bad taste we had in our mouth. There were not CO's out there in search of starting troops. I got lucky after about 5 tries and found a CO willing to consider chartering a troop. It was a lot of work on my part. We are working at developing a relationship with our CO and they seem willing, but for the most part, I think they feel they have done their part by giving us a meeting place. We are at a church and none of our troop attends this church. In fact, it is such a small church that they really don't have any boy scout age boys. They pretty much let us do our thing and would look at it as interference if they were to select our leaders for us. Face it, most leaders come from the parents of the boys. A CO actually recruiting a leader from outside the troop is rare. Having been on search committees looking for church staff, I know it often takes months and months and months to find the right person for the job. What does the troop do while the CO is doing a search for the right person with the right qualifications? Most just won't involve themself in that. They leave it to the troop committee. I kind of look at it as putting money in the Salvation Army pot at Christmas. It gives you a warm fuzzy to know that you are helping someone in need. But it is a far cry from actually serving food at a homeless shelter. CO's often have the ssame attitude. They'd rather give you a place to meet and feel like they are doing their part as opposed to actually taking an active hand in running things. I know your answer is to develop the relationship and I also know that there are many CO's who resist that relationship because they do not want their committment to go beyond providing a meeting place. The model of a caring CO recruiting leadership is a great model on paper. It just usually does not happen that way in real life.

eagle90 · June 22, 2005

Beaver, I agree. Years ago when we told our CO about the responsibilities of recruiting leadership for the troop, they said,"We can't even get our own leadership positions filled, much less yours." They do give us a place to meet. I think it depends on who your CO is. Churches and civic organizations are much more amenable to helping compared to PTO's, PTA's schools, etc. If it was up to our CO recruiting leaders for us, we would be defunct. Almost all are parents or parents of former scouts.

dkurtenbach · June 22, 2005

Bob White makes a good point -- BSA already has a system in place for dealing with program quality issues in units, so why don't we just use that process instead of bothering with yet another initiative? There have already been a couple of good responses, but I'd like to offer a couple of thoughts.

The process we have goes something like this: An program quality issues arises in a troop. The Unit Commissioner spots it and does what he/she can to coach the unit leaders to a solution. If that doesn't work, it is reported to the Assistant District Commissioner/District Commissioner level(s), where additional solutions may be tried. If necessary, the District Commissioner takes the problem to the District Committee, where the appropriate operating committee(s) (Training, Membership, Activities & Civic Service) and possibly the District Executive swing into action to provide the necessary resources. Ideally, the problem will get fixed somewhere along the way.

* I would say first that there is really no reason that this process should be the exclusive remedy for unit quality problems. We should really have a range of measures available -- both preventative and remedial -- to deal with problems. BSA has multiple official options in many areas; there is no reason it can't have multiple official options for addressing/preventing unit problems. In other words, lots and lots of us can be out picking up litter in our neighborhoods, but if a nationwide education/prevention program can convince my neighbors not to litter in the first place, that frees up a lot of labor.

* As Beaver noted, the system doesn't always work as planned. Maybe there is no UC; maybe the UC doesn't know what to do; maybe the CO isn't interested in the problem; maybe the District Commissioner, District Chairman, and District Executive have too many other things going on. If the remedial system is broken, and it is the only game in town, then it has to be fixed before it can be used to fix the unit. In the meantime, the Scouts and the program suffer.

So I would say yes, by all means we must use the system in place; but we should also be developing additional methods within the system, if possible.

Dan K

Bob White · June 23, 2005

Beaver

One problem could be that there are people in your district trained on how to seek and recruit new COs. Did you use these people to prepare the CO for their role?

If you knew the importance of the COs role in supporting a scout unit and you saw that it was not going to exist there why did you choose to start the troop there?

Dan,

I am not sure where you got that problem solving process from but it does not resemble anything I have seen before. What specific process would you like to see instituted?

Wouldn't be better if someone just chose your neighbors based on their attitudes and abilities? You cannot control your neighbors behavior but their own family can have a huge influence.

The BSA and local commissioners cannot control other volunteers but their scouting family at the CO can. The local council/district is there to support the units not to police them. The quality and performance of the unit is the responsibility of the IH,CR and CC.

Being an effective scout leader is really a matter of personal responsibility isn't it?

Eamonn · June 23, 2005

Some years back I sat on the Cub Scout Camping Committee,at that time we didn't have a Program Executive and the DE's had areas that they took care of.

The DE who had Cub camping sent out a letter informing me about a mandatory meeting.

This really upset me. I called her and informed her that I was a volunteer and that in my book there was no such thing as a Mandatory meeting.

I did attend the meeting because I was the Cub Scout camping representative for the District and they were depending on me.

If I had not attended, maybe the then District Chairman, could have found someone else that would have been more dependable than me.

While I still don't see or like the idea of mandatory things, I do make the people who hold District positions accountable. If they are not going to do the job or perform the way that they should in the role that they accepted, we need to meet talk and if need be look for someone else who will do the job.

I like to think that I use different styles of leadership to enable us reach the goal that we have set.

When I was District Commissioner, I made it very clear to the Commissioner Staff that they set the example when it came to uniform. How could a UC do a uniform inspection, if he or she wasn't in the correct uniform? Each and every Commissioner seen the truth in this and with in a month they were all in full uniform.

Leaders have to lead, they have to know the correct style of leadership that is needed.

Unit leaders deliver the program, they lead the unit but they are accountable to the Unit Committee and the CO. If they are not doing their job they need to be replaced and the people who tell them are the COR along with the Unit Committee.

It is when we fail to do this that this Loosey-Goose sets up shop.

I know each and every unit leader in the district. I know the good, the bad and the ugly. I knew them when I was District Commissioner, I knew them when I was attending R/T's as a Cubmaster. I attended Council Commissioner Cabinet meetings the Council Commissioner knew who the bad and the ugly ones were, but the District and the Council can't do anything. So the job lies in the hands of the CO and his representatives.

Eamonn.

dkurtenbach · June 23, 2005

Bob, that problem solving process is right out of the books. Specifically, you'll find it in "The District" and the "Commissioner Fieldbook for Unit Service." Yes, the Institution Head of the Chartered Organization, the Chartered Organization Representative, the unit Committee Chair (and the Committee), and the Scoutmaster are all responsible for the quality of the unit program. Often it takes someone from outside the unit (Unit Commissioner) to spot issues and problems, and folks from outside the unit to provide advice, guidance, and resources to help the folks within the unit and CO to solve their problems.

Certainly we need to have (or develop) strong district institutions to support units with advice, training, and programming. Certainly we need to do our best to find committed Chartered Organizations and select quality leaders. But we know that, as a practical matter, we _don't_ always have strong district institutions; we _don't_ always have committed COs; we _don't_ always have quality leadership in units.

So bringing this back to the original topic, I'm looking at how we can _prevent_ a lot of common unit problems (and thereby improve the quality of unit programs) even in a less than ideal environment, even where the unit leadership is weak / untrained / untrainable, the CO is content with providing a meeting place, or the district support structure is in disarray.

I think the source of many unit problems is that units deviate from or fail to implement tried-and-true practices that have been tested and recommended by BSA and proven over and over again to work.

Unfortunately, we don't currently have a culture in Boy Scouting that strongly encourages conformity to the BSA-recommended program. We have a culture that seems to value flexibility and innovation and units doing their own thing ("loosey-goosey") -- and even scorn for the model -- despite decades worth of experience telling us what works and what doesn't. Compounding that are the weak / untrained / untrainable unit leaders who either don't know about the BSA model or simply choose not to follow it.

I think that being as "loosey-goosey" as Boy Scouting is is detrimental to the program. If we could convince units to use and stick to the "best practices" laid out by BSA, we can prevent a lot of problems.

Dan K

Bob White · June 23, 2005

"Bob, that problem solving process is right out of the books. Specifically, you'll find it in "The District" and the "Commissioner Fieldbook for Unit Service.">

Where?! I have a copy right here and those steps are not listed.

It gives a few of the most common life threatning problems that a unit might face and tips on how to find solutions and none follow the steps you offered. In most cases the manual directs the commissioner on how to help the unit solve the problem within their own administration personnel. The closest is when it suggests in a single line that in case of major program deviations the UC should invlve the District committee. Other than that the problem solving steps all refer to solutions found within the unit.

So if the BSA program has tried and true methods that work but there is a culture of ignoring those methods then your solution is....change the methods???

To what? How do you propose to alter methods that work to appease a culture which you say won't use them into a method that works that the culture will use???(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

dkurtenbach · June 23, 2005

Bob, it's all right there in the books -- which are right in front of me.

No, my solution is not to change the methods -- not sure where you got that. My solution is to change the culture -- find ways to emphasize and encourage the use of the methods and reduce deviations from the recommended program.

Dan K

Bob White · June 23, 2005

"No, my solution is not to change the methods -- not sure where you got that."

From you saying that the current methods are not working and we need to develop new ones...

I am just asking what specifically you suggest.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

dkurtenbach · June 23, 2005

Umm, Bob, the whole point of this thread is that the current methods work *if they are used*, and to urge that we look for ways to get more units to use the methods more consistently and "do their own thing" a lot less.

It's all right there in my posts, including a few specific ideas.

Dan K

evmori · June 23, 2005

Right on the money, Dan!

It is everyone's responsibility to ensure a healthy unit.

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

Fuzzy Bear · June 23, 2005

Dan,

I agree.

The District Committee, the Commissioner Corps, the District Roundtable, the CO, the unit leadership are a loose group of individuals that loosly support each other in all of the elements of the Scouting program.

You are correct.

FB

SR540Beaver · June 23, 2005

Bob White:

"Beaver

One problem could be that there are people in your district trained on how to seek and recruit new COs. Did you use these people to prepare the CO for their role?

If you knew the importance of the COs role in supporting a scout unit and you saw that it was not going to exist there why did you choose to start the troop there?"

In many of the cases where I was trying to find a CO, I never got beyond a phone call before I got the "we are not interested" line. Others simply never returned my phone calls. Of the two who entertained the idea of chartering a troop, our DE accompanied me to meetings and we tag teamed them. So yes, I was aided by the one person whose job is measured in part by the growth in number of scouts and units within the district. Actually, I was doing much of his job for him as he was busting his hump trying to meet the requirements of the other part of his job he is measured on...FOS. Recruiting CO's is a long slow slog for most DE's who have a limited amount of potential charters to draw on. Charter organizations are not exactly lining up at the council office offering their services.

As I said, we are cultivating the relationship with our CO. They have expressed a desire to help us more, but have limited financial, physical and human resources available. Even the pastor is a part time minister. The DE and I did out dog and pony show presenting what a CO is complete with BSA literature. They promised to do their best. Why did we go with them you ask? We had a ready made scout troop meeting in very temporary quarters and chartered to the parents as a concerned citizens group. Our CO turned out to be the only game in town for us. It isn't perfect, but so far it has been pretty good.

I know the model expects organizations to be highly motivated to contact the council seeking a charter and/or the DE is out making calls on a dialy basis presenting scouting to them and cultivating relationships. I know the model expects the CO to jump in with both feet, take the bull by the horns and recruit a high quality COR, who recruits a high quality committee chair, etc, etc. You and I both know that probably in 90% of the cases, it just does not happen that way. A charter organization is talked into providing a meeting place and the person who talked them into it usually ends up taking "ownership" of the process and begs, borrows and steals to get parents to volunteer and build the troop.