Teaching self-reliance

[CNYScouter]

 

We have an ASM, who is an Eagle Scout and a trained leader that believes that we should be teaching self-reliance.

 

He think we should being doing more camping trips where the Scouts each have to bring their own food, their own tent and have to do everything on their own.

 

A while back, we discussed buying new tents.

We had another leader who thought that everyone should have same tent and each patrol be assigned these tents.

The first leader argued against this as he felt each boy should have to go out and their own tent to be self-sufficient.

This discussion was shelved and we havent got back to it yet.

 

I do not see where this fits into the Scouting program.

Does any see how this concept could fit into the Scouting program?

 

I know this topic will came up again and any suggestions on what to say when this is brought up again. This ASM thinks that we dont need to follow the program as outlined by the BSA have a good scout experience.

 

 

CNYScouter

 

P.S. This discussion ended before I could suggest that I thought we should be spending time figuring out how to teach the Scouts how to select a good tent and let them make the decision on what to buy.

 

[SR540Beaver]

I think it fits in to the scouting program in several ways. We are trying to teach boys how to make ethical choices in life. We are trying to teach them independence. We are tryingto teach them to be leaders as well as team members. We are trying to teach them to be men of character. Wouldn't you think that self reliance fits into all of those things in one form or fashion? That being said, I'm not sure how having them buy a tent of their own and bunking alone will teach them about ethics, character and leadership. Not to put words in Bob White's mouth, but in earlier threads discussing bunk buddies, Bob carried the buddy system all the way to tents. If a scout gets up in the middle of the night to answer nature's call or gets extremely sick, there is an advantage to having a buddy to recognize that you didn't return to the tent and may be lost or that you need medical aid. Some felt that was extreme, some didn't. Out troop does not supply tents, but we are a new and young troop. We don't have the bucks to do it. Therefore, the boys supply their own tents. They do have to rely on their self. They are responsible for setting it up or asking for help and returning the favor. They have to care for the tent. If they tear it up, it is theirs to deal with. They can't try to sneak a torn troop tent by you and hope to get a good one next campout. It makes them learn to take care of their shelter or learn the hard way real fast. The realization that it is your responsiblity is a step towards self reliance. Another scout has gone missing in Utah. He has yet to be found. Will he be able to rely on his self to stay alive, sheltered and healthy until help comes? I hope so. He is a very young scout without a lot of experience. I hope that all the skills we use and teach will teach a boy to be self reliant. I don't think we have to go commando or native to do it. I don't think supplying your own tent as opposed to troop tents will make that huge of a difference in the process to self reliance. Never throw away the patrol method in an effort to teach self reliance.

[Mr.Maynard]

Hi CNY

 

Our troop supplys the scouts w/tents not all kids can afford new tents.

So in order to give them the experience of camping we supply the tents to the boys that dont have one.

What are they going to do tell the boys that if they dont have there own tent then they cant go? You cant do that! Each boy shouldnt have his own tent anyways there is a thing called the buddy system, each boy must have a buddy even in the tent or going to the K.Y.B.O.

As far as having the boys bring there own food thats not a good idea. The reason is that you have new boys that dont know what there doing and older boys that may be up there in rank but just dont care. Have you had an outing where each patrol had to bring their own food and didnt have enough for them to eat? We let the boys plan the meals out and charge so much for each outing we get the food but the Scouts have to cook every meal. The amount of money for each outing depends on how many boys are going.

 

 

Mr.Maynard

 

[SemperParatus]

I've always thought that self-reliance is a good thing to develop in a young person (as is relying on others and having others rely on you). It sounds as if your complaint is about either the extent or tactics that this particular ASM is focusing on this issue (at the expense of other scouting methods)? Is he merely suggesting that more backpack-styled trips be scheduled, or that every trip be a complete 'on-your-own' experience? A little variety can offer each boy an opportunity to experience the world and his role in it in a different way, and that usually means growth. Perhaps, a 'wilderness survival' campout experience once a year is enough to appease this adult (although I completely agree that we are not here to appease adults) while giving the scouts some challenges that help them mature into young men that can handle situations requiring their individual efforts and ingenuity.

[SR540Beaver]

One note about boys buying their own tents. We have had boys go out and buy 6 man cabin tents that take up an acre of land. You make them buy them and you have little control over what they buy. You can suggest, but you can't control.

 

Mr Maynard,

 

While I don't disagree with the buddy system extending to tents, show me where the BSA even suggests such. The buddy system is important in the water or away from camp and we enforce it religiously, but we don't extend it to tents. The fact that our tents are within a few feet of each other if not closer and you can hear a tick pass gas from one tent to another makes us not worry so much about having a buddy in the tent. There are some boys who no one wants to tent with and are miserable if they are forced to. There are some boys who have privacy issues. Don't get me wrong, we like for them to tent together, we just don't force them to. In fact, we quickly learned to limit our scouts to two per tent and no more. In our experience, if you get more than two boys to a tent, one of two things happen. Either one guy becomes the odd man out or the party runs all night long. We've had nothing but bad things happen and damaged tents with more than two to a tent.

[CNYScouter]

To clarify a few things-

 

I was using the tents as an example. He thinks the Troop should not supply any equipment at all. Each Scout should have to supply their own tents and cooking gear. Doesn't belive in Patrol boxes either.

 

Money is not an issue. The troop has over $5k in its account, not counting individual scout accounts. (a whole another issue).

 

Last year we did do one camping trip like this. He would like to see the troop do many more. He is convinced that the reason this was so well attended was that each Scout had to supply their own food and sleeping arragements.

I feel the reason was that it was our best attended event was that it was 100% planned and executed by the boys and its only purpose was to play a giant game of capture the flag and was the only camping trip that offered any type of competition like this. I think it didn't matter what the arrangments were the turnout would have been the same no matter what.

[EagleInKY]

Conducting activities like this once or twice a year would certainly work on building self-reliance (a great trait that ties into several points of the Scout Law). But, doing it all the time negates one of the most powerful methods in scouting - the Patrol Method. You need this ASM understand that there are multiple facets of the system. He obviously has a bias toward one area of interest.

[DugNevius]

Self-reliance is a huge part of the program in my veiw and there are many ways in which to teach it. The patrol method is a great way for the youth to learn it and the first steps in teaching self relaince is to teach them to be able to not need to rely on adults. "Ask your patrol leader" is a staple in our troop. We also ask parents of new scouts to sit out of the first two camping trips so their son gets accustomed to being away from dad.

 

The ideas presented by this ASM are interesting but i dont see them as the only way to do it. To do something like this once in a blue moon would be a fun or interesting idea but teamwork and leadership are also major parts of the scouting experience.

 

I remember as a youth in Maine we would do "solos" where we would be escorted to a secluded area of the woods or small island and given food, water a a few supplies and were to stay there for more then 24 hours, never leaving a designated area and forced to cope with the seclusion of solitude. It was a very interesting and rewarding experience and i passed the time playing with snails and crabs i found along the low tide rocks, doing alot of journal writing and deep thinking. Its something to try but not to force.

[evmori]

Self Reliance is very important. Right up there with being prepared.

 

We supply our Scouts with tents. They are responsible for taking care of it on campouts & making sure it is in condition to be used again. By that I mean no rips, all zippers work smoothly, clean. After a camping trip, on Scout per tent will take the tent home & make sure everything is in order. If it's wet, it is their responsibility to return it dry. We feel this teaches them how to take care of things that aren't yours. Trustworthy.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

Not to dwell on tents!!

A little Lad joins a Troop, one of the first things he learns is the Scout Oath:

On my honor I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country

and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong,

mentally awake, and morally straight.

 

My honor.

I will do my best

To do my duty

Keep myself.

Seems to me that if a Lad is doing all that he is working on becoming self reliant.

Eamonn.

 

[msnowman]

Requiring each Scout to provide his own tent and cooking gear will serve to send the less well-off boys packing. That would eliminate my own Scout if his troop did things that way. We have all we can do to make sure he has his uniform, school clothes, shoes every 4 months (do their feet ever stop growing?) and Scout Camp. If the troop required him to have his own tent and cooking gear he'd either be done or be living on peanut butter sandwiches that do not need to be cooked or kept cold. Tell me how long that would make him want to remain a part of the troop.

 

Self reliance shouldn't have to come at the cost of being able to participate in the very program that can give them those skills.

 

JMHO

Michelle

[madkins007]

Tents: Troop owned several, but getting them back in good shape was a MAJOR hassle, so we began to request that people provide their own. They were welcome to borrow ours but basically 'rented' them in the sense that we had them sign'em out and in. I have to say that overall, I preferred it when the Scouts provided their own- they took better care of them.

 

Patrol boxes: These things can become a major hassle- they are huge, heavy (one of ours could not be easily carried by 4 Scouts!), often filthy inside (and hard to sanitize), etc.

 

At a camporee, I watched a group using plastic tubs and folding racks (like cheap TV trays). When I talked to them, I found that the tubs were stored at a member's house, were cleaned after each outing, were restocked at patrol meetings just before the camp, and carried in a parent's trunk. I fell in love with the idea! I also discovered that a lot of the stuff in the tubs was scavenged from member's homes or thrift shops and included a large supply of plates, etc. Each patrol had a couple of tubs- usually one for cood gear and the other for dining gear and other patrol supplies (notebook, flag, etc.)

 

 

 

I think that some of the 'traditional' ideas of troop/patrol gear can indeed be rethought to encourage better patrol spirit AND personal responsibility... as long as there are options for new or other Scouts- troop-owned loaner gear, a rummaging bin of stuff peoiple can have or buy cheap, etc.

 

I would DISAGREE that individual cooking should be the rule- although there is certainly a time and a place for it, just as I think there is a time and a place for adults cooking for all (such as a 'party'-type campout hosted by parents).

 

 

[ozemu]

Scouting should be a rich and varied experience.

 

The Patrol method is our mainstay. A Scout learns from peers, shares the work with them and eventually is responsible for running the Patrol and training its members.

 

Looking after gear is one of the progressive tasks achieved in all aspects and to completion during those years.

 

Rich and varied.

[CNYScouter]

The idea behind this post is not whether the troop should supply tents and equipment or the Scouts supply it themselves but rather teaching individualism over working in a group.

 

Can anyone point me in what BSA publication shows how to teach self-reliance?

How do you use all 8 methods of Scouting to teach self-reliance?

 

CNYScouter

 

[Hunt]

I don't think you need to "teach" self-reliance. I think self-reliance is one of the products of a good Scouting program, along with self-confidence. Just think--if a boy has been in Scouts for a number of years and is Star or Life rank, he's learned a large number of skills, he's camped many times, he's learned how to work with a group, and how to lead a group. In other words, self-reliance isn't a skill; it's an attitude developed by a person who has actual skills upon which to rely.