Bending or Changing the Guidelines

[CNYScouter]

This thread was spun from another thread.

In the thread by BW he asks:

What I wanted to talk about is the willingness of Scout Leaders to pick-and-choose what rules they will follow based solely on their personal comfort or convenience

How about Troops that routinely bend or change rules.

What I mean by this that most adult leaders would never think of changing the number of MB's required for a rank but do not have a problem with changing POR requirements or uniform requirements. I have yet to meet a troop that has not Altered or Changed some BSA guideline in one way or another

Things like if the SPL is elected or appointed or changing the amount of time they serve. Currently the Troop I am in has changed the time a scout serves as a SPL/ASPL/PL from 6 months to a year. They have also added that to be considered active they must attend 80% of the Troops activities.

I see that this 80% rule has caused a problem as that on the last camping trip of the SPL, 2 ASPL's, 3 PL's and 3 ASPL's only one PL made the trip. However, because they had already met the 80% rule they didn't need to go to still be considered active. My feelings on this are that an SPL or ASPL should be on every trip and the PL or ASPL for each patrol should be there. The other leaders in the Troop see no problem with this set up.

How do you get the leaders to get out of this habit and follow the guidelines as outlined by the BSA?

Our Troop Committee meeting in this weekend and our yearly planning session is in a couple of weeks and I would like to bring this up.

CNYScouter

[Eamonn]

How do you get the leaders to get out of this habit and follow the guidelines as outlined by the BSA?

A good question.

I wish I had a good answer.

I think at the end of the day we can point out what the guidelines are, show where the resources are. Try and make quality training as available and user friendly as possible. Argue and debate till we are blue in the face. Pray for divine guidance. Whack them who refuse to listen with a rolled up copy of the G2SS. And go home knowing that we have at least done our best.

Eamonn.

 

 

[Bob White]

The soultion I believe though possible is probably unlikely to happen in totallity. That solution would be for the CRs to make a concentrated and sincere effort to select the right people to the key leadership positions.

 

To often it seems that units are lead by people who are willing to take the position, but not willing to to the job correctly. Being able to wear a uniform and be in charge of other people seems to be a powerful underlying motivation for some people to volunteer rather than to accept the obligation to deliver the Scouting program.

 

You cannot have a quality program without quality people in leadership.

 

 

[Kahuna]

Why do we want to change other units? I have enough trouble taking care of my own. However, if you must, what Eamonn said is about it.

[SR540Beaver]

Bob,

 

You are of course correct. However, you are well aware that many CO's take no part in a unit other than to provide meeting space. I know all of the arguments for cultivating a relationship with the CO and agree with them. However, there are still CO's that just won't bite. The vast majority of CO's I'm aware of do not take part in the unit and leave finding leadership up to the unit. Most unit leadership is made up of parents of scouts who have no relationship to the CO at all. Also, many units would be resistant to the CO introducing a John Doe that none of them knows.

[Bob White]

I agree Beaver, but until leaders are selected for their personal abilities to fulfill the obligations of the office and not because they can breath and walk upright, the problem of leadership following the program will continue in some units. Let's be honest the program is not that hard to follow.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fuzzy Bear]

CNYS,

 

I can only imagine the reason for the 80% rule. It may be that a person(s) wanted to define ACTIVE or they wanted to to encourage Scouts to attend outings on a regular basis. Rules that define program usually mean that there is a problem with the Program not with the Scouts.

 

Program can only be defined by the Scouts that plan and represent other Scouts in the initial process, of course, with the consent and the support of an active Troop Committee. Take the 80% rule and reverse it. Make it an 80% rule for all of the adults that lend support for a Scout planned program. Let the Scouts decide if their own program is worthwhile to attend. Penalizing Scouts for not attending is an open admission of a poor program which is one that is generally adult planned with little adult support.

 

Another Adult Rule- if one Scout shows for a program, if it rains, if it snows, have the program and fully support it. Make sure that it is the best program ever.

 

Capturing one's will through understanding is much better than subjecting it with rule keeping.

 

The reason a Scout or a Scouter willingly wears Scout Socks is not because of a rule but because he is proud to be associated with the greatest organization in the world and that person wants everyone to know it

 

FB

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Some units are happy they have enough warm bodies as leaders.

 

Some leaders are born. Others need development. We all don't lead the same way. And I know this isn't in any BSA book or manual but good leaders were good followers.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Oak Tree]

CNYS,

 

I'd say the attitude on following the program is something that generally emanates from the top of the organization. Typically if the Scoutmaster strongly believes in the rules and wants everyone to follow them, the unit is far more likely to go along. It's a relatively tough sell to go the Scoutmaster and argue with him that he should bend the rules.

 

Sometimes it could come from the Committee Chair as well, depending on how involved he or she is.

 

Probably more effective to talk to them behind the scenes about their philosophy than to argue in front of a group.

 

Just one man's opinion.

 

Oak Tree

[Bob White]

"And I know this isn't in any BSA book or manual but good leaders were good followers."

 

Then why do some leaders, who consider themselves good leaders, not follow the scouting program?

 

It certainly can't be that they were never told that they were supposed to, it's in all the training and all the manuals. Heredity? Nurturing? I think not. It's likely they simply made the choice not to. So what are the chances they might change? Based on conversations on this forum some will and many will not. The only hope then is the knowledge that they will someday have to be replaced. Let's hope the CO makes a better decision next time around for the boys' sake.

 

[evmori]

Not what I meant. What I meant was good leaders were good followers before they were leaders. They listened & learned. They followed.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SeattlePioneer]

As usual, I again find myself disagreeing with those who suppose Scouting is mostly about following rules.

 

Scouting involves learning the skills and techniques of leadership, which can and often does involve following rules. But where do the rules come from? They are created by human beings as general guides to action and behavior. They are not necessarily complete guides to action by themselves.

 

Leadership involves wisdom and good judgement in devising and applying rules. A person who contents themselves with rigidly applying rules they have learned is not a good leader.

 

Personally, I consider the Scouting program as written to be far better than any I could come up with on my own, so I have a large bias in favor of following the Scouting program as it is written. But when there is good reason to do so, I'll deviate from the Scouting program as written and recommmended.

 

I think that is why great emphasis is placed upon selecting a suitrable person as Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is ideally a person who has skills and knowledge, but also wisdom in deciding how to deal with people and apply rules. Blind or rigid application of rules is not good Scouting practice, in my book.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

 

 

[Bob White]

Please show where anyone has said that scouting is about following the rules. I cannot find that in any post. I have only seen where it was said that good leadership in scouting follows the Scouting "program", and rules are only a very small part of any program.

 

This emphasis on the rules is a fabrication resulting from the misrepresentation of what was actually written. No one has even suggested that the sole factor in good leadership is the ability to rigidly follow rules. What was said was that purposely ignoring rules was poor leadership.

 

We could have far more productive conversations if we all stuck to posting what we ourselves thought rather than misrepresenting what others have said.

 

I leave now for our jambo shakedown campout. I hope everyone was a nice weekend.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[CNYScouter]

Kahuna -

I am not looking to change other unit but my own.

Recently I went looking for a new Troop as the one we were in was just not delivering the Scouting program.

I visited 6 units and spent some time talking with them about their program. I found that each had altered and bent one of the guidelines.

 

One thing I personally saw was that the program developed by the BSA works. During my SM training one of our Patrol Guides had a Troop with almost 80 scouts one of the biggest and most active Troops in our council. I asked him his secret. He replied, I dont have a secret, we just follow the BSA guidelines.

 

In the Cub Pack I am with when my son was starting his 2nd year of WEBELOS a week before the first Pack meeting I got a call from his Den Leader saying that he could not continue and could I take over. I said yes. Not having a lot of time to prepare I just got out the book and followed the requirements for AOL. 3 out of 4 boys joined a Troop and the 4th wanted to but his parents wouldnt let him (another story).

 

The next year we had 2-second year WEBELOS dens with 10 cubs. The Den Leaders refused to attend WEBELOS leaders training, ran the dens just like they had the previous 4 years and did very little Boy Scout stuff and did very little towards earning the AOL . Out of these 10 only 2 crossed over to a troop.

 

This year we had 6 second year WEBELOS. One dropped out early, but the Den Leader followed the program and all 5 that remained crossed over into a Troop.

 

I see that following the program the BSA has established works.

 

I just cant seem to convince other leaders to follow the program as written.

 

CNYScouter

 

[SMT376Richmond KY]

CNYS

 

I follow the program as outlined in my Scoutmaster's handbook. I also follow G2SS and try to get our young boys to realize that ours is a boy led Troop. We have a problem with a few other units in our area that in my opinion do not follow the program fully. I've seen at district camporees that the Adults in these units do a lot for the boys (bring precut firewood, clean dishes for them, build fires for them etc.) I've rarely seen a boy in a POR in these Troops inform the Scouts of anything.

 

I think it's important for our Scouts to get camp set up first (adults help them if needed but we stand back and see if they can do it themselves), go out and properly find, collect and prepare firewood not have it precut with a chain saw for them. Since our boys have seen these other Troops they don't want to go out and collect firewood or cut it for that matter. The SPL (my son)usually ends up having to "get them" several times to go collect wood(he goes too)since it's hard to lead from the back of the group which has led some of the boys to "dislike" him as they say he's "always yelling at them". In fact, my son informs me he doesn't want to be SPL again since "those guys just don't listen or want to do anything they only want to play in camp."

 

I had one of our orginal boys call me after our spring camporee last month and tell me we was quitting the Troop when I asked him why after 2 years of membership (only made SC wanted the advancement but not willing to do the work, only lacked identifying 10 plants and night navigation for FC missed opportunity to do both at spring camporee due to sleeping) he said "well you always want us to do everything when we go camping." I took the opportunity to educate him by telling him that "if the leaders do everything for Scouts do you think the Scouts would learn anything?" Unfortunately he didn't get it and said well "I just don't want to do Scouts anymore." There seems to be a trend here since we have had several drop outs recently and the overlying theme is "too much work camping". In fact, we are down to six boys now (from 10) which makes it really hard to spread the duties around on a weekend camping trip. When the boys complain both myself and the ASM's tell them "hey recruit some of your friends or the other boys to come back if you don't want to do clean every day."

 

Anyway my point is by following the program as outlined it's my expreience that alot of today's youth don't want to do the required work and have come to expect that everything be done for them. If the trend keeps going the way it is I'm sure we'll fold the Troop next March since no one's knocking down our doors and even the roundups that we did for the fifth graders this year or the one for the communtiy set up by our DE had 0 participation. Our Pack has 10 webelos that will be ready this year but none of them have participated in any of the activities the Troop has invited them too over the last year. I was told that this was because the parents did not want to come camping with the boys. Well that's the program they have to come with their boys I can't change that.