Puzzled

[scoutingagain]

Since so much of this discussion, (which I have found interesting to follow) revolves around uniform rules, could someone please clarify what the national uniform rule is (not a troop or unit made up rule, the BSA rule) and what the consequences are for violation of that rule or rules are? Are they the same for adult leaders and youth members?

 

 

 

SA

[johndaigler]

Sorry, Scoutingagain, I'd rather have root canal than follow you down that trail!! Unless someone wants to help me complain about Cub uniforms!!

But I believe that horse is too recently dead to go near it.

 

Anyway, back to Eamonn . . .

 

How do they deal with a Scout who disobeys one of these rules and when asked why? His answer is that the rule is stupid.

Eamonn.

 

 

IMHO, I don't think that's difficult. I think the key is "ethical decision making". I don't ignore rules or rank them or try to slow down when I see the flashing lights (well, alright I slow down, but I've learned to use cruise control so I know those lights are not for me anymore). I judge the rules. I look at the rule and ask myself if that's a good rule - is it right for me, for my boys, for whoever is affected by the rule. 99% of the time I say, "That's a good rule." Or, at least, it's close enough that I believe following it is a greater good than breaking it. But, on occasion, I DECIDE the rule is inappropriate and I make what I see is a better choice.

Since that's exactly what I'd want from a Scout, a son, a President, . . . it's pretty straightforward. When he called the rule stupid, he has judged it and found it less than BEST. If he can explain that, to my cross-examining satisfaction, I let him change the rule. It's a simple standard but amazingly high since most rules are broken for reasons other than judging them inadequate.

 

jd

[FScouter]

JD - This may be a simplification of your response to Eamonn's question, but allow me. You make up a troop rule. A boy violates the rule and when called on it he says the rule is stupid. You cross-examine him as to why the rule is stupid. If his answers meet with your approval, he is excused from the rule.

 

Does this mean you've been convinced that the rule is bad and should be repealed? And if so, maybe it should not have been imposed in the first place.

 

That approach may work with a rule imposed by a Scoutmaster. I'm not sure we would want a boy to take that approach with a law in the community. Break a law, maybe get caught. If caught, argue with the judge about why the law is stupid.

[johndaigler]

FScouter, thanks for your approach. I appreciate the thoughtfulness and respect.

 

 

From the beginning of this thread, we've all pointed out the need to first try to challenge the rule through appropriate processes. I hope we're teaching him to come to me before he breaks the rule and tells me why he thinks the rule is stupid enough to break. After he breaks the rule there might be consequences that he won't appreciate.

 

 

It's not as simple as excusing the boy from the rule. If he's convinced me the rule is inappropriate, then I would effort to change the rule. Hopefully, that's not a complicated matter, because I've put myself in the position that I now have to break the rule with him or invalidate my philosophy, betray him, and lose credibility. In your scenario, I'm making the troop rule, so I'm assuming that gives me the right to change the rule.

 

 

You're mostly right about the rule never having been a good rule. But, sometimes rules are good for a while then they need to change - the key is that they change based on improved thinking or differing conditions. In our example, that's brought to light by the Scout's ethical decision making and critical thinking. Would there be many moments to be prouder of the young man?

 

 

I'm not sure we would want a boy to take that approach with a law in the community. Break a law, maybe get caught. If caught, argue with the judge about why the law is stupid.

 

Seems a bit like licking a wire to see if it's "hot"!!!!!

 

F, I think the only difference is the boy's ability to understand and accept potential consequences. The skills, process, and moral obligation to challenge wrongs are still the same. Again, let's teach him to argue his position before he breaks the rule. If he breaks the rule first, the stakes can get high - particularly in the real world.

 

jd

 

[Eamonn]

Sometime back a forum member provided a link to the Troop Bylaws that someone had spent a lot of time and effort crafting and writing. Sad to say I can't remember who or where the link to the document is.

I did take the time to read it. Most of what was in it was material that was covered in BSA publications anyway. I am sure that there are those who will say such a document is a useful tool for informing parents and Scouts what is and what isn't acceptable.

Some of the troop rules were rules that someone or some group had decided were for the good of the troop.

The bad thing about trying to give examples in a thread like this is that we end up discussing the example and missing the point. But what the heck.

One Lad from our Council a football player asked the SM of the other 2001 Jamboree Troop if he could take his weights with him. He wanted to keep in shape. The SM said it was OK. Both Troops unloaded the equipment truck and there were a few moans and groans from the Scouts who got stuck unloading this Lads weights. Other than that everything was OK.I don't know if the Lad ever found the time to do any lifting or not. The other SM a person I know and love dearly thought this was great. He went on and on about what a good football player the Lad was and how great it was that he was keeping in shape.

I had a parent approach me and ask if her son could bring his violin, she wanted to make sure that her son got his daily dose of violin practice in. I said he was welcome to bring it but I didn't think we could really look after a very expensive instrument and that camp even the Jamboree wasn't the ideal place for a violin. She explained how he had taken it to summer camp and when it wasn't being played it was kept in the Scout office. He ended up not taking it. In both cases we managed to come to an agreement that everyone was happy with. I was really happy as I have heard the Lad play the violin and he isn't very good!!

Loading and unloading the weights was a bit of a pain, but no real big deal.

Violins and weights are not on the equipment list for the Jamboree. I suppose someone could write a rule that dumbbells and weights are not to be taken. Without working too hard I could make a list of why they are not to be taken and the Lad could rightly say that this is a stupid rule. Of course next time he might be asked to do his own loading and unloading. If the parent had been willing to chance leaving the violin in her sons tent and take a chance that it might get wet or broken I would have been OK with him taking it. I feel that we deal with each Scout and each case on its merits rather than having books of rules. If the Lad had taken his violin we would have looked at when would be a good time for him to practice.

I as a leader do not need to hide behind some book of rules, big-headed as it may sound I am confident in my leadership skills to do what works. Most times by just asking questions the Scout can work it out for himself.

There are times when Scouts mess up and their behaviour is not in keeping with the Scout Oath and Law, when this happens I don't pull out the latest copy of the rule book, instead we look at why this behaviour isn't acceptable.

For this to work I have to make sure that my behaviour is in keeping with the Scout Oath and Law. As a leader of our youth I hold myself to a higher standard than others. Not for fear of the consequences but because it is the right thing to do.

I just don't understand how some people can in one hand hold up the troop rule book while in the other hand be holding a book of BSA rules or guidelines that they have chosen to ignore.

Eamonn.

[Oak Tree]

Eamonn,

 

You're right, it does seem a bit hypocritical to say that you don't need to follow the rules you've been given, but you'd like to add a bunch of rules for other people to follow. I personally don't see the need for a bunch of bylaws, although I have no objection to a unit procedure manual (e.g. our dues are $X, when we go camping we pay for it through some method, here's how we do Scout accounts).

 

I don't know if you have someone particular in mind in your statement (I don't think I'm the target), but I'll take a stab at answering the question anyway.

 

A local unit may find that certain national rules, crafted to cover a million boys, do not apply perfectly in their situation. But they may find that they do need to have another rule or two that do. This might appear to be an awkward ethical position, or maybe it's just adapting the rules to cover the actual situations the unit finds itself in.

 

Oak Tree

[Eamonn]

Hi Oak Tree,

Please don't think I was trying to point a finger or pick on anyone. That never has been my intent and I hope that it doesn't seem as if I am.

My hope is that even though I don't think a forum even one as good as this can be will change the hearts and minds of anyone, we can as Scouts and adult leaders look at a topic and discuss it.

Anyone and everyone is free to think that my argument or even me is dumb. I hope that being Scouts they don't post it!!

If nothing else we can all give our little gray cells something to work on.

I agree that there is a need for information, but I don't see this as a rule. Sure the Troop meets on Monday at 6:30. Is information. But when someone adds that Scouts need a 75% attendance record to advance this then becomes a rule.

The rule doesn't take into account why a Scout might not make 75% of the meetings, so then we add that a Scout needs to makes 75% of the meetings to advance unless he has a good reason not to and then we find a Scout who made 74.9% of the meetings and so it goes on. We end up spending time and effort doing the math when we should be spending time and effort trying to make our meetings so darn good that a Scout is upset when he doesn't make 100% of the meetings.

I have of course been accused of living in Utopia and not being realistic, but I can't see doing it any other way, unless I'm willing to admit that I'm second rate and then my ego comes into play!!

Eamonn.

[ASM59]

Here's my 2 cents...

 

What this whole matter comes down to is integrity! The desire to follow the whole law should be at heart. Our society is set up in such a way that if we disagree with a law, there are ways to attempt change. But, adherence to the law is still mandatory, until such time as that law might be changed. Just because you are not caught making the illegal U-turn, or just because the policeman did not stop you for going 5 miles over the speed limit does not mean that you did nothing wrong. You still broke the law. And if you were transporting Scouts (or any children) at the time you have set a bad example. Breaking the law is breaking the law, shoplifting may not be as serious as murder, but it is still wrong!

 

I believe most if not all Scouters out there are great volunteers who have the best interest of the boys and the Scouting program at heart. One possible problem here could be our society and how ethics are taught in our schools and universities. Right and wrong are not always taught as right and wrong. Rather degrees of right and wrong are discussed. And lets not forget gray areas; whats wrong for one person may be not be wrong for another.

 

As pertains to Scouting; rules are rules. Perhaps some of the problem might be ignorance. If we do not seek to find, read, and understand the rules, we cannot apply them. It is our responsibility as leaders to make sure that we have read and understand the rules. If we do not agree with a rule, we should petition to see that rule changed. In the meantime, we must follow that rule if we are to be a good example to our Scouts.

 

Perhaps this is for another thread, but there do seem to be some rules that are somewhat ambiguous and can be interpreted differently by people. As long as someone has sought to understand and is applying that rule to the best of his/her ability then I think they are doing just fine.

 

& btw dont forget; James 2:10

 

ASM59