Puzzled

[Eamonn]

I have enjoyed and am enjoying the discussion that we are having about what I see as leading by example in the other thread.

I do understand that some may not see it that way and it does seem clear that some are at odds with me and the others who seem to be in agreement with with me.

I don't in any way see this as a personal attack on me or my well being. I hope that I have not come off as seeming to attack, belittle or harm others.

After all, that wouldn't be kind and being kind is a Scout Law.

I do find it a little puzzling that some of those who taken the stand that some rules are more important than others or carry more weight than others are the very same people who seem to want to have bylaws and Troop rules.

In fact some argued against the idea that a Troop can function very well with just the Scout Oath and Scout Law, in place of all these rules, bylaws, call them what you will.

As I say I find this puzzling, and almost contradictory.

While I am unwaivering in my belief that the Scout Oath and Law are all that are needed for a successful Troop and Troop program. It could be that some of these people are skilled in the craft of writing rules and laws?

However my puzzlement or question is; How do they deal with a Scout who disobeys one of these rules and when asked why? His answer is that the rule is stupid.

Eamonn.

[packsaddle]

Just for the record, I do place the rules in some sort of hierarchy of importance. However, this unit has not (nor do I encourage) bylaws or something similar. The existing rules confuse me enough as it is.

[Scoutndad]

IMHO...my response is always the same...since I can no longer think as a young adult (without obvious adult biasness), I ask the Scout why they think the rule is stupid. In understanding the reasoning behind their definition of "stupid" (the same rule can be interpreted to various degrees dependent on the age and upbringing of the scout and I am sometimes surprised at what I hear as the answer), we can then start down the road of understanding why the scout has taken his position and what can be done to help the scout better appreciate why a specific rule is necessary. Role play works great but needs to be age specific.

[Bob White]

So when it comes to laws in your community.. do you role play through each one regarding their value and then if you can't find a reason for why you think the law is needed you give yourself permission to ignore it?

[evmori]

Excellent point Scoutndad! What we as adults perceive as stupid might not be what a Scout perceives as stupid. And having a better understanding of how the Scouts think can only be a good thing.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Scoutndad]

Wow BW your brief and rude response was way off base and off topic to the posters original question (should be under the decision making thread whether we should guide the scouts to make good decisions or tell the scouts how to make good decisions)

My contention was that in order to understand the original question, you have to understand the mindset of the person who deems it "stupid". Don't bring the "rules is rules" mentality when the poster poses a question about what is deemed "stupid". If it was that clear to begin with and the scout was brought up understanding why rules/laws are created, then this thread would have no relevency. Until then, let's try to understand why the scouts question what we would deem to be fair and equitable rules as "stupid" and then role play to help them understand that the rule is developed to protect their best interest or the necessity to have the rule to begin with.

[Bob White]

Not at all ScoutnDad, in fact the poster of the original question, Eamonn, knows that I agree with him on this 100% and in fact he is asking the very same question that I am asking in another thread and neither of us seem to be able to get a straight answer to it.

 

My response was to you and it was not rude. You claim that if the scout doesn't like the rule that you 'role play' with him to determine the validity of the troop rule.

 

My question was do YOU do this with the laws in your community? Do you role play each law to determine their validity? If not then why teach that to the scout.

 

The rules that govern our societies, whether in or out of scouting, are not optional in their adherence. While you are welcome to work through the representative system of government to change those you disagree with. There is no option offered to only follow the rules you like or agree with and expect to have the rights and freedoms of a citizen in good standing.

 

Eamonn's question, which you did not answer, was 'if leaders ignore rules they do not personally like then how do those same leaders react to scouts who choose to ignore the rules that they do not personally like'?

 

Many here have told about how they pick and choose which rules are important to them and which are not, and yet they do not tell us how they explain that to the scouts, or teach the scouts to do otherwise while they ignore rules. I believe the reason they do not respond is that their behavior is indefensible and they know it.

 

[packsaddle]

I actually did this once with a boy. He said something about a law and I asked him why he felt that way. His response was impressive enough in its reasoning that I was disarmed of a counterargument (other than thumping the City Code at him). So I suggested a visit to the City Manager's office so both of us could learn the answer. And we did (actually the whole den went as part of advancement). And we both learned something. Worked out well I thought.

 

The hierarchy of importance has been expressed to me many times by law enforcement officials. They have the discretion (read judgement) to weigh how much over the speed limit (just using an example I have read in these threads) a person is driving and decide whether to throw the book at them...or not. Or like Robocop, they can arrest every last one of us who exceeds it by even a little bit, no matter the circumstance. Edited Part: I just remembered, there were (are?) numerous small towns that do exactly this. And they make a fair amount of money for the town. Ludowici, GA comes to mind:

http://www.speedtrap.org/speedtraps/comments.asp?state=GA&city=Ludowici&st=12749

"...honest Sheriff, I paid cash money for them chickens.."

One more Edit: Anyone remember what Lester Maddox (Georgia's Governor) did because of the Ludowici reputation? He must have thought the law was 'stupid' as well.

 

At some level, all of us who are part of society have to trust someone else's judgement. Sometimes this is good, sometimes not good.

At the same time, I also see the value in the Robocop approach. It can be used effectively as a passive-aggressive way to protest something. As I express it to people working in large organizations, sometimes the best way to test a rule is for everyone to adhere to it faithfully, without exception, regardless of circumstances. It can force the issue and if it is a good rule, it will stand the test.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Scoutndad]

His question is:

How do they deal with a Scout who disobeys one of these rules and when asked why? His answer is that the rule is stupid.

 

Don't confuse threads...

My posting did not tolerate the ignorance of laws nor did it try to effectuate the "explaining" away of laws...your last post was more characterisitc of what I have expected from you.

And to get back to your view on local community laws (not related to BSA) will you please explain the recent repeal of the 330 year old law in Massachusetts that banned Native Americans from the Boston city limits? Is it good or bad?...but it was a law last year but not this year so NOW how do I explain it to the scout...times change, values change and laws need to change...you can't explain away some truly inept laws but you CAN try and help a scout understand the history behind it and help them understand the views that surrounded the original law.

By appearances, you seem to be very knowledgeable person when it comes to the BSA...don't muddy the water by bringing over your responses (and passion) from another thread.

And as for my view on community laws, I don't have to like em but I do have to live by em or prepare to suffer the consequences of breaking them. By that comparison, I do lead by example and do not knowingly break them.

[evmori]

I musta read Scoutndad's post wrong? I didn't read anything about the validity of a rule. What I read was finding out why a Scout thought a rule was stupid so we as adults can explain the rule so the Scout has a better understanding of the rule.

 

Comparing how one wears a uniform to water safety is a little absurd. When it comes to water safety (or any safety for that fact) there is no wavering from the rules. As for the "how to wear the uniform" rules, those are more guidelines than rules. After all, how can you have a rule for something that isn't required?

 

EDIT PART - Scoutndad's post directly before this post wasn't there when I wrote my post!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Scoutndad]

Nice posting Pack - Great example and solution.

Same goes for you Ed - nice analogy.

Could not have said it any better...

 

 

[packsaddle]

Thanks Scoutndad. But for the sake of clarity and accuracy, I have now edited that message twice since your post...in case anyone wonders.

[Bob White]

Local community laws are absolutely related to scouting. We are teaching scouts the process and values to make ethical decisions throughout their lives. How we teach them to make decisions in scouting will effect how they make decisions in the community. The example we set is probably the most influetioal tool we have as leaders.

 

You cannot separate the lessons of scouting from the behavior in the community.

 

The structure of scouting is a microcosm of howe local, state and federal governments are structured in the USA. You cannot separate the lessons of citizenship in scouting from those of your community.

 

You cannot ignore local laws and expect the scouts not to ignore troop rules. You cannot expect to ignore scouting methods and not expect the scout to ignore yours.

 

I am amused by those who say that breaking laws such as speed limits is ok as long as the police "choose" not to ticket you. Perhaps a class or two in civics were misswed. Legislature makes the laws. Not being caught or not being ticketed does not make the behavior legal only unpunished. Do not kid yourselves. If the speed limit is 65 and you drive 70 then you are breaking the law...even if you "get away with it".

 

If you go 5 miles over the speed limit and do not get a ticket but down the road you get in an accident and it is determined that you were driving over the speed limit...guess what happens.

 

Do you really want to teach scouts that it is ok to break rules if you are confident you will not be caught or punished?

 

Obeying the rules of the community is a part of good citizenship.

 

 

[Scoutndad]

Pack - very nice editing!

 

Only took 3 posts, but I finally agree with your last line BW.

 

OK...so...now you have explained the rules, the scout thinks they are stupid and then BLATANTLY BREAKS the rule in front of you to see what happens...now what?

 

I have no good answer for this but as I indicated in my last post, I lead by example and teach my scouts to be responsible for their actions and to deal with the rewards(good actions) and consequences (bad actions).

 

What do you do?

[Bob White]

I teach them to live by the scout law. To be trustworthy and obedient when it comes to the rules of their community, their family, their neighborhood, and their troop.

 

That if they feel a rule or law is unjust they have have a responsibilty to try and change it but thaty also have an obligation to obey that rule until the time that it changes.

 

And I set that example in my life as did my parents. To simply ignore rules because they do not suit you personally is self-centered and self-serving and is not a reflection of good scouting or good citizenship.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)