Son's first campout as a Boy Scout

[Bob White]

A few things come to mind. What should have happened to prevent that from happening to your son, What should have happened once the problem was discovered, What should be done about it now to minimize the chance that it will happen again.

 

AND the fact that this is a good example of how to make scouting work, OR a very bad example of good scoutmastership. Perhaps both.

 

In my mind making sure new scouts have a good...no make that great..camping experience the first few times out is a priority of good adult leadership.

 

Adults should be in the background listening to planning, checking plans, guiding events. before anybody starts screaming that the boys need to make their own mistakes lets remember that they first need to be trained how to do things right. Knowledge takes time and skills take practice. Let's remember that you cannot expect scouts to learn everything simply by being miserable.

 

During the campout the adults or junior leaders need to be observing key activities to make sure the new scouts are doing well. Food, water and shelter are basic needs that need to be met for any person but especially new scouts IF you want them to stay in scouting.

 

Once the problem was reported action should have been taken. Here is a great opportunity for a good asult leader to calmly meet with the junior leader to discuss what happened and ask them what should have been done to avoid the problem as well as what should have been done once the problem was realized.

 

This is where you see what kind of adult leadership your troop has. Do they holler at the boys for not solving the problem. Do the counsel the scouts about why this is important as leaders to know the needs of the group and the individuals in it and how a leader takes responsibility for their welfare.

 

I hope your SM steps up and does the right thing as a leader.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[ScoutMomAng]

There were 11 boys on this campout, although there are 30 or more in the Troop. They went as ONE PATROL so the Senior Patrol Leader was in charge and whoever is below him was second in charge. The second in charge is who my son told.

 

Dad is planning on talking with the ScoutMaster tonight and let him know what happened.

 

Madkins--- I'm sure my son wasn't out "doing something else" when he wakes up in the morning he is usually the first one to the table because he is hungry, always has been always will be as far as I can guess. Out of the 11 boys 4 of them were new boys to the troop. From what I understand the SPL got up before everybody else and started cooking breakfast, so I don't think there was really a "call" for breakfast.

 

As far as PB & J...I have no idea, I'm sure if it was there he would've eaten it since it is his favorite sandwich. I'm not sure what was for breakfast, Ed, but does it really matter?

 

I'm not sure why he didn't talk to the SPL...maybe he couldn't find him at the time, maybe he just decided after the first answer there was no sense in pushing it...he's like that, even with me...if we say no or not now or maybe later..he just deals with it. I'm thinking there was no portion control since there was nothing left by the end. In all my times I've been camping we've had enough food to feed seconds to everybody at every meal.

 

 

Bob---we had a long talk with our son and hopefully he realizes now that he should've made waves in this case but only time will tell. We will talk with the Scoutmaster tonight and I will let you know what happens.

 

Thanks to all for the advice and understanding.

[Zahnada]

I think Bob is dead-on with this issue.

 

I would like to add a word of caution when resolving the situation. As a new scout, the last thing your son needs is for the other boys to have the impression that he's "ratted them out" or something. It's a tough and awkward age to survive in and if your SM decides to yell or lecture, it may only make life in the troop tougher for your son.

 

I think the real lesson here is for your son. This is one of those issues that is best dealt with when it happens instead of after the fact. I actually think this will be a very important life lesson for him. Be sure that the learning opportunity isn't lost for him.

[evmori]

Only reason I asked was is it possible it was something your son didn't like? Just asking.

 

[FScouter]

"They went as ONE PATROL..."

Therein lies part of the problem. 11 is too many for one patrol. No patrol identity. This kind of tweaking by "efficiency-minded" adults is very detrimental. The designated boy leaders of this kind of one-event patrol really don't have the close ties to the other boys that are found in a normal patrol. I've seen these kind of campout arrangements deteriorate into an every-man-for-himself mentality.

 

 

[Bob White]

Don't misunderstand me, I don't think your son should have needed to make waves. He did the right thing, he just didn't get the response that he should have from the assistant patrol leader. That is a training problem.

 

In the future, until the leadership training problem is solved I would get you son a freeze dried meal, teach him how to make it and have him pack it as a precaution.

 

Rather than focus on what he should have done talk with him about how we will respond in the future when he is in the position to help another scout in his situation. Make him better prepared as a camper and a leader rather than help make him a more effective victim.

 

It's fine to know what to do if you fall off a cliff, but it's better to know how to avoid falling off all together.

 

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[ScoutMomAng]

Well, talked with the Scoutmaster tonight...this problem has happened before. So he will talk with the older boys and see if he can get them to figure out what went wrong and what they need to do to make sure it doesn't happen again. We didn't get to talk to the SM until after the meeting because we had something else going on.

 

My son knows that he too needs to be able to follow some sort of "chain of command".

 

There were actually only 9 boys that went in the end. I know I put 11 on the tour permit. The reason they kept them as one patrol is because only a couple from this patrol went, a few from that and a few from the next, and with the new boy patrol it seems to me that it made sense that they were one patrol or at least with some experience (maybe not the best experience but better than on their own) since their older boy that is "teaching" them wasn't on this campout.

 

Ed---I know the first morning they had some pretty "crappy" eggs, but on the second morning I'm not sure and have not had a chance to ask my son yet what was supposed to be for breakfast but as long as it isn't a vegetable he'll pretty much eat it.

 

Bob--I understood your first post totally. I know you weren't saying he should've made waves just to be making waves but he should've followed some sort of chain and I'm not sure why he never told the SPL, my guess is still because once he's told some excuse, reason or answer he just goes with it. He's not the type of kid you want to just joke around with...he is very literal. You could NEVER tell him he just failed the 5th grade even though he knows he's smart enough and should've passed the 5th grade because he would just believe you and go with it...he might go to his room and cry but you'd never know it.

 

Kenk--I brought up to the Scoutmaster that I think the cooks should've eaten last or at least been able to do some sort of portion control because he said himself that they have some boys that are VERY BIG eaters. In Girl Scouts we have Kaper Charts...each "patrol" is responsible for some sort of thing at each meal (one "patrol" cooks, one prepares and one cleans up---clean up crew eats first so that they can start with dishes). This is what I did with my Webelos when I took them camping...it worked very well. He agreed that they should at least do some sort of portion control to insure everybody got something.

 

Hopefully things will work out and my son has learned something.

 

Thanks again for all your input.

 

Ang

[orennoah]

ScoutMomAng:

 

I just want to add a bit of my experience. Both as a Scout myself and now as a Scoutmaster, we ALWAYS cooked by patrol (even a short-handed patrol). Further, the cooks either dished out the meals or supervised self-service. Of course, they dished their own meals last. (KP going first.) NO ONE ate until everyone was served and grace was said.

 

Eating together is one of man's most important social bonding rituals. How do we show people we care about them? We invite them over to our homes for a meal. How do business people develop important relationships with each other? They go out for lunch and eat together. Don't get me started on family meals. I could also expound to boredom on the shared food traditions of the major religions. Passover. Communion. Etc.

 

So. Cooking and eating TOGETHER is a crucial aspect to patrol bonding and team development.

 

There is no place in Scouting for grabbing what you want from the communal pot, going off and eating it with no regard for your fellow Scouts.

 

The SM's explanation of "big eaters" just doesn't cut it with me. If everyone waited until everyone was served before starting to eat, there would NEVER be a situation where someone got nothing. If they had failed to prepare sufficient food, all may be a bit hungry that meal, but no one would go totally without, EVER.

 

- Oren

 

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

This is an interesting thread because it challenges the folks who ritually trot out the idea of "we have boy led patrols. The patrols decide everything and unless it's a safety issue they'll learn from their mistakes."

 

When you get down to cases, it's not quite that easy, and boys often enough need to be protected from the consequences of poor decision making.

 

At our Camporee ten days ago, Scouts (and adults, too) had trouble getting enough food available when it was needed to keep energy levels up. This resulted in boys and adults going hungry and energy levels crashing. Of course, Camporee is DESIGNED to challenge patrols and troops. This one did a good job of feeling out our weaknesses.

 

I got up at 5:30 AM and had breakfast pretty much ready for the adults by 6 AM. But then it was 12:30-1PM until lunch. I had added "fruit" to the menue, and had an apple for each person, but I had neglected to actually hand the apples out until I started getting hungry around 11 AM. Then I remembered and handed out the fruit, which really tasted good, and provided a much needed energy boost.

 

I later discovered that some Scouts hadn't eaten much for breakfast ----picky eaters who were used to cooked oatmeal and didn't want to eat instant oatmeal (or maybe it was the reverse?).

 

Judging from the number of Scouts who were energy starved and listless, or crabby and uncooperative by 11 AM, we were not alone in failing to deal adequately with the need to keep people properly fed.

 

The good thing about this was that it was so obvious that it will be easier for the Scouts and adults to learn the needed lessons.

 

Our troop has been concentrating on doing car camping. Personally, I see a good deal that still needs to be learned about this art.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[SR540Beaver]

Seattle,

 

I believe you contradicted yourself. You said, "This is an interesting thread because it challenges the folks who ritually trot out the idea of "we have boy led patrols. The patrols decide everything and unless it's a safety issue they'll learn from their mistakes."

 

Then you said, "The good thing about this was that it was so obvious that it will be easier for the Scouts and adults to learn the needed lessons."

 

That is exactly what those of us who use the term "learn from their mistakes" mean. You teach, train and test the skills they need to be self sufficient and independent in camp. Boys will often take short cuts even when they know the right path to take. Letting them see where that leads is a good thing until safety or health becomes an issue. What follows is a what did we do wrong and how can we do it better discovery. We have one scout who just won't drink water and got sick on at least 5 campouts in the last year and a half. We had to start monitoring his water intake and make him drink water in front of us to make sure he was staying hydrated. This past weekend we hiked with full backpacks. He actually drank plenty of water on his own and even related from his own experience what happens if you don't to the new boy patrol. He finally got tired of having headaches and throwing up and decided to do what he knew was the right thing all along.

 

Every campout should be a learning experience regardless of whether it is the scouts or scouters. It certainly is for me. Once they are trained and decide to ignore the training, then we let the consequences (within reason) teach them the wisdom of the training.

[Hunt]

I think what makes this case different from those in which the boys should learn from their mistakes is that the ones who need to learn--the boy leaders who planned, cooked and served the meal--apparently got food to eat. It was the new scout who didn't get any food. I would have no problem if all the boys discovered that they each had only half a hot dog to eat because of their poor planning, but it's a different story when it's the new guy who bears the brunt of the mistake.

[SMT376Richmond KY]

Would like to relate something that has happened on a few of our trips. For our trips the boys plan one big breakfast usually on Saturday morning and have something lite for easy clean up on Sunday morning so they don't have a huge mess to clean up (they took this from the leaders example after a few Sunday's spending extra time cleaning the griddles from eggs, bacon and pancakes). The Sunday breakfast always has available the following instant oatmeal, fruit and juice of somekind. In addition, I keep stocked in the pantry bin peanut butter or cheeze sandwhich crackers one or two 12 packs of each as well a ramen noodles etc.

 

On our last camporee two weeks ago we had 3 older boys who simply refused to get up for Saturday and Sunday breakfast (this is a recurrent theme for these lads)after the third attemp by the adults we told them "ok you've decided to sleep in if you miss breakfast that's your decision." Well these lads awoke just as cleanup was being finished and wanted to eat. The SPL told them "hey you slept through breakfast we're getting ready to break camp." Saturday I informed them to get something out of the pantry that we were getting canoes in the water for the river trek.

Sunday when they came to me to which I offered them an apple and some penut butter crackers.

 

Well you guessed it one mom calls that I wouldn't let her son eat breakfast for two days. To which I informed her that her boy chose to sleep through breakfast and he was provided something to eat for both meals. She appologized after asking the boy (I could hear her asking him if what I told her happend and he said "yes but that wasn't breakfast").

Sounds like the Troop at the start of this thread needs to stock it's contingency pantry better.

[ScoutMomAng]

If my son would've told dad (the assistant scout master) and the Scout master he would've eaten. And the boys would've had their talking to before they left camp. But because he neglected to tell anybody he suffered. Hopefully he has realized that if he doesn't like something he should ruffle some feathers. He doesn't get his quietness from me! I regularily ruffle feathers...makes for interesting days! I'm not saying my son was wrong or right however, he should've used better common sense. I just wanted to know basically what other troops would do in this situation before I went to the Scout master (yes me, not dad...maybe that is where he gets it from). As for a stocked pantry...it's possible it was there and my son didn't know and the other boy...who knows???? My son now knows what he did wrong and what the boys did wrong, and dad has learned something too. I'll let you know how the next campout goes in July.

 

Thanks again for all your input.

 

Ang

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello, Richmond ---

 

I hope you'll let us know if those sackrats get up in time for breakfast next time!

 

 

Personally, I got up at 5:30 AM in order to be ready to serve hotcakes, sausage, chocolate and coffee to the adult patrol at 6:00 Ayem at our recent Camporee. I think I was correct that a substantial breakfast before a long, strenuous day was important.

 

Even so, I forgot to hand out the apples I had on the menue for snacks --- until 11 AM, when hunger reminded me of my error. The apples were important.

 

 

The Scouts had a big discussion over whether to go "light" to ease the burden of picking their camp up for the Camporee inspection. I think they wound up with a fairly simple breakfast, which showed when the energy level of the boys plunged along with mine around 11 AM.

 

I saw a quite a few Scouts in that condition at the camporee at about that time.

 

And going lite on second day meals doesn't sound wise to me for much the same reason. Energy reserves that are depleted on day one or two of a weekend trip may be easily depleted unless everyone has a substantial breakfast in their stomach.

 

We checked out around 11 AM Sunday at the Camporee, but I got up a 6 Ayem to cook corned beef hash for the adults. That was a stomach full of energy to keep people going.

 

I seem to be developing a definite bias towards keeping people well fed with substantial fare on multi day campouts. And snacks ---they are important too. Some fruit was a big help at 11 AM, four hours after breakfast.

 

Going "lite" is probably very wise with sedentary city life, but I don't think it's good when leading the strenuous life.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[SMT376Richmond KY]

Seattle

 

Hey we ate good all day Saturday about 3 doz scrambeled eggs between 5 boys. 3 lbs of bacon and 2 lbs sausage and 3 cans of bisquits plus toast, OJ, and fruit. Lunch was about 3lbs of cold cuts, hot dogs, chips, apples,and pudding. Saturday dinner was foil packs using 5 lbs of hamburger, a bag of potaoes, onion, carrots, dinner rolls and cobbler or snack cakes to top it off. Friday night snack was cracker barrell left overs which was a cheese and relish tray cookies etc. Saturday night snack was of course smores. We also had trail mix for the hike and Quaker chewy's for the canoe trip. So no reason for anyone to be hungry. In fact, we brought a lot back with us.

 

I hope the sleepy heads learned a lesson. I did forget to mention in my earlier post they could cook and clean their own breakfast since we had eggs and bacon left from Saturday and miss the canoe trek but it was up to them. They each ate from the pantry and went canoeing. But believe me no one was hungry or even complained of such since the granola pars and trial mix was used during the canoe trek.