Parents Acting as Merit Badge Counselors

[evmori]

Bob,

I am not approving MB counselors. There you go assuming again! If I know a MB counselor "rubber stamps" merit badges, I am not sending Scouts to him/her. How do I know a MB counselor "rubber stamps" merit badges? Other SM's and Scouts have told me so. And a Scout is trustworthy.

 

Once again, you seem to think your interpretation is the only way. It isn't. And just because it isn't your way doesn't mean it isn't Scouting. You want to interpret things literally when they fit your definitions and not when they don't. You can't do that! There is no consistency that way. And a literal interpretation would be the SM gives the Scout the name of ONE qualified MB counselor.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Actually Ed I am trying to help others understand the program through a sharing of the BSA resources and by explaining how the methods are used to achieve the mission of the program. I understand that you have a personal conflict with that approach. I cannot help you with that.

 

 

[evmori]

Actually, Bob, you spin things to fit your interpretations. You are very knowledgeable and a great resource. But, not everything in Scouting is as black & white as you would like it to be. There is a lot of grey areas & I would bet the BSA wanted it that way so units could tailor the BSA program to fit their specific makeup. What works for one unit might not work for another. What works for one Scout, might not work for another.

 

I have no personal conflicts with the methods & aims of Scouting. My conflict comes from your "I'm right & you're wrong" mentality because I don't do things the way you do.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

I can't help thinking that we all can go to page 187 of the Boy Scout Handbook and read what the good book says.

I also like to think that we are in the business of supporting the Lads in the program.

At the District and Council level we have people who put a lot of time and effort into preparing a list of Merit Badge Counselors. I know in the District in which I serve our Dean Of Merit Badges does not rubber stamp the applications he receives for people who apply to be Counselors. All applications are discussed by the Advancement Committee and do need to be approved by the committee.

After many years of having a list that just didn't work, I will admit finally getting an up to date working list which works was something that I took great pride in.

When the Dean of Merit Badges meets with the advancement committee to look at people who have asked to be merit badge counselors, the first thing that is looked at is if the person knows the subject, and then if the person can work with Lads of Scout age.

Some people who apply are willing to Counsel any Lad, while others only take Scouts from the Troop that they are registered in.

The list is available from Scoutmasters all troops have a list which is updated quarterly. A more up to date list is available from the Dean who will e-mail the list to any leader or any Scout who asks. Some MB's have a gaggle of counselors, some only have one.

Our District covers three small towns and a large rural area stretching up the Laurel Mountains in Fayette and Westmoreland counties at times during the winter months travel can be hard, so we have tried to ensure that we have qualified counselors in every community.

Finding a Dean was not an easy task, once I got my grubby paws on him, the first thing I asked him to do was the Merit Badge Counselor list, our goal was to make it as user and Scout friendly as we could. Of course there are Troops in the District that for different reasons do all merit badges either in house or at summer camp. I personally like the idea that the Scout gets the list and makes an appointment and takes it from there. If the person he phones first isn't able to accommodate his needs for some reason he moves on down the list.

I have known SM's who when dealing with a young or a very shy Lad will phone the counselor before the Lad and warn him that this is a very shy little fellow and to take care of him. Then you have Lads like my son who seems to know everyone in the Council and he thinks nothing of phoning people.

The requirements of the merit badges are in most cases very clear, if the counselor is knowledgeable about the subject and doesn't change any of the requirements he or she is OK and good to go in my book. I don't care if he or she is the parent.

We are here to support our Scouts not put road blocks or hurdles in the way.

Eamonn.

[Bob White]

The topic of the thread, as with most threads on this forum, is about how to deliver the BSA scouting program, Why you continue to try and turn the conversation to your personal opinion of me, rather that to address the topic and the use of the methods of the program being discussed, is baffling.

 

You say I am very knowledgable and a great resource, but yet you disagree with nearly everything I write, even when I quote a BSA resource. I have no idea how you can say one thing and yet do the other, but neither have anything to do with these threads.

 

We obviously have different ideas of what the program is and how to work with youth. We also have had very different results. You are as free to post your tilt on a topic as I am and the reader can compare it to the program resources and determine their own preference.

 

But if your only contribution to the topic is going to be your dislike of me then there is very little reason for you to post. Your view on that topic is already well documented.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Eamonn, I wish our boys had the benefit of a MB program such as you describe. They don't. And I guess that leaves a lot of discretion to the SM who can 'control' the boy's choice. Maybe someday....

[evmori]

The SM handbook & BS handbook are worded identically regarding this subject. It is open for interpretation - the Scout picks from a list his SM has or his SM gives him the name of a MB counselor. Either is a correct interpretation.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

"Counselor A lives on your street.

Colunselor B is a teacher at your school

Counselor C is an Eagle Scout

Counselor D works at________

Counselor E is your Mother.

 

Who would you like to use?"

 

So, Bob, if the Scout already has five merit badges, all counseled by his mother, you would say nothing? If you personally know Counselor C and think he's a terrific counselor, you would say nothing? Why would you want to imply that they are all equal, when you may have good reason to know they aren't? It seems to me that this is a situation in which the SM can and should offer helpful advice. I understand that you strongly believe that the SM should not "assign" the MBC, but it sure seems to me that the more natural middle ground would be to go through the list of counselors with the scout and tell him what you know about them.

And specifically, don't you think a scout should be counseled to consider doing MBs with counselors other than his parent? We actually had this in my son's troop--a boy who did his first five merit badges with his father. Nobody criticized him for this, but we did chat about it at one of his rank BORs, and suggested he should broaden his horizon and work with some other adults for the experience. I think this was helpful advice for him, even if he didn't ask for it.

 

[Bob White]

"So, Bob, if the Scout already has five merit badges, all counseled by his mother, you would say nothing?

 

Why should I? The fact is in nearly thirty years of being a troop leader it never happened in a unit I served and if it did so what? If the parent is qualified what harm is there to the Scout?

What are the chances that a large number of parents are going to sign up for any merit badges let alon a half dozen or more. It just doesn't happen often enough to be an issue. In addition the BSA specifically allows it so where is it my authority to deny it?

 

"If you personally know Counselor C and think he's a terrific counselor, you would say nothing? Why would you want to imply that they are all equal, when you may have good reason to know they aren't?"

 

Because it is not my advancement or my decision. If I thoubht someone wasn't qualifies I would have him or her removed from the list. Otherwise, while each one is not identical, they can all be good. My job is to help boys make ethical decisions, not to make them do want I want them to.

 

 

 

 

[Hunt]

I'm sorry, Bob, but I think your objection to the Scouter who wants to control the Scouts has led you astray in this case. I just can't see how giving advice--even unsolicited advice--in this situation could possibly considered interfering with the scout's ability to make an ethical decision. (And what is the potentially unethical decision you are worried about in the choice of a MBC? I don't get why you keep mentioning this.)

Also, you don't need to see things in totally black and white terms. You imply that either a counselor is totally unfit and should be removed from the rolls, or he is equal in quality to all the other counselors. That isn't reality, and ignores all sorts of facts that you may know and that the scout has no way to know unless you tell him--like how busy the counselor is, how much experience he has in the area, whether he likes to do the badge with two scouts or with a larger group, whether he's available in the summer, and to me the most important, whether in your opinion he's a really excellent counselor.

And on the issue of parents as counselors, I guess you've been fortunate in never facing the situation of a Scout who was doing "too many" MBs with his dad (however you might define "too many"). I have encountered that situation, and felt that I would be derelict in my obligations if I didn't give the scout some friendly advice. Just because something is allowed doesn't mean that it is equally beneficial as something else.

[FScouter]

Decision making. Part of growing into a man involves making decisions. Part of Scouting is helping boys make decisions. Is it really our objective to ensure that the boy gets the "best" counselor. It's more important, I believe, that the boy be confronted with a decision about which he has no information with which to guide him.

 

Let's say you need an attorney to draw up some legal document for you. How do you go about finding the "best" attorney? Do you look down the list in the yellow pages and pick any one? Or do you ask a friend or colleague for a recommendation. Maybe you call 2 or 3 attorneys on the list and ask some questions.

 

Could a boy get a positive learning experience by doing the same thing? Is it really better to do this work for him and simply hand him a pre-selected counselor? By doing so, I believe we miss a learning opportunity.

 

And what if he picks the wrong counselor? How bad could this be that an adult must step in first to prevent it?

[Eamonn]

Help me out here I think I must be missing something.

Little Ed looks through the requirements and decides that he wants to do the Law merit badge. His Mom is a lawyer and since he was a very little fellow every night at dinner they have discussed her day at work.

Ed goes to his Scoutmaster and informs him that he wants to try and earn the Law merit badge.

The Scoutmaster opens his briefcase. He pulls out the blue application for merit badge card.

He fills in the name and address of Little Ed, marks that Little Ed is a registered Scout in troop 123 in New Trails District in Two Thumbs Up Council, he dates the date and reads that Little Ed is qualified to begin working on the Law Merit Badge. He then signs his name.

Little Ed then asks to see the Merit Badge Counselor List.

The Scoutmaster goes to his briefcase and takes out the District Merit Badge list.

As he takes it out he remembers that Bob the ASM, who was the counselor for the camping merit badge has moved and that he had intended to apply to the District Advancement Committee to have his name added to the list, and if he wants to get it in before the next District meeting he will need to do it soon.

The Scoutmaster gives the list to Little Ed.

Ed looks at it and sees that there are two people listed as counselors for the Law MB,one of them is his Mom the other is his uncle.

He knows that of the two his Mom is going to be a lot tougher to deal with. So he phones his uncle. The only time that his uncle is free is the same time as the troop meetings.

Ed is a PL and he now has to weigh up the situation. Does he go to his uncle who will not be as hard as his Mom and miss a troop meeting? Or does he go to his Mom?

Ed spends a restless night thinking about what is the right thing to do. In the end he talks to his Mom.

She explains that really it shouldn't make any difference as the requirements are the requirements and both his uncle and her are people who are used to sticking to the letter of the law and both will not change any of the requirements.

He works with his Mom, meets all the requirements. Mom signs the blue card, Ed turns it in and is awarded the merit badge at the next suitable occasion.

The Scoutmaster turns his application in to become a Camping merit badge counselor. The Dean of Merit Badges doesn't know him, so he calls and asks about what camping experience he has? Scoutmaster explains that he is an Eagle Scout and is very experienced. The Dean, knowing that a Scout is to be trusted takes his word for it and tells him that he is going to recommend to the advancement committee that he be added to the list.

While the Scoutmaster has the Dean on the phone he informs him about one guy who is adding all sorts of extras to pioneering merit badge and about the Lady that isn't covering the requirements for the Dog care merit badge.

When the new District list comes out the Scoutmaster sees that he has been added to the list (He had received a post card telling him that he had been added) and that both the Dog care and Pioneering counselors had been removed.

What am I not seeing?

Eamonn.

[evmori]

Eamonn,

Nice story. What you are not seeing is reality. You story while good is Utopian.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

"Could a boy get a positive learning experience by doing the same thing? Is it really better to do this work for him and simply hand him a pre-selected counselor? By doing so, I believe we miss a learning opportunity."

 

So I take it you wouldn't give the scout advice on what counselor to use even if he asks for it, because you'd rather let him build character by finding out for himself which ones are best? I'm sorry, I just don't get this. Certainly, there is absolutely nothing in the Handbook, the Requirements book, or anywhere else that I know of that suggest the SM shouldn't advise the scout on what MBC to use.

 

"Is it really our objective to ensure that the boy gets the "best" counselor."

 

Can I say yes? I thought the purpose of the merit badge was to learn something about the material, and secondarily to enhance adult association. If there are three counselors listed, what is the Scout going to "learn" if he chooses one that doesn't counsel as well as the others--which you knew, but didn't tell him? When he comes back later and says, "Mr. SM, I had all kinds of trouble doing the MB with Mr. X, because he was so hard to reach. I found out that Billy and Bobby had the same trouble. Why didn't you tell me?"--what are you going to say, "You didn't ask"--? Maybe what you and Bob are really saying is that the Scout should learn to ask you for advice, and that you're not going to volunteer it. OK, I guess--as long as they understand that.

Eamonn, I have no problem with scouts using their own parents as MBCs--I've done it with my own son, and probably will do so again. However, it continues to be my opinion that a scout should avail himself of the opportunity to work with other adults, especially if they are equally as qualified as his parent. I see nothing wrong with sharing that advice with a scout--it isn't criticism, it isn't an effort to control him, it is simply giving him a tip that I think will be helpful to him. To take another example, I offer my unsolicited opinion to scouts that they should consider doing MBs at camp that they cannot do easily elsewhere, and also urge them to do MBs that get them outside. They are perfectly free to ignore my advice, and may well do so (including my own son).

 

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

We had two families with full intention of being their sons (five sons total) counselors for all the MBs just so they could fast track the sons to Eagle. Our adults felt this was not giving the boys the best opportunity to practice making ethical decisions. To suggest it doesnt happen is silly. To suggest how to handle the possibility would help serve the purpose of the forum.

 

>>And what if he picks the wrong counselor? How bad could this be that an adult must step in first to prevent it?