By-laws

[Hunt]

I think both camps will agree that this troop's by-laws need to be "revised." Certainly this particular by-law needs to be revised out of existence.

 

You know, we've returned again and again to some of the prevalent myths and improper advancement rules (like, a parent can't advise the MB, blue cards expire in a year, etc.). While obviously training is the best way to counteract these, I wonder if it would help if BSA would post a FAQ debunking the most pervasive of these myths. I've seen lists like that posted in various places, but it would perhaps help to have a central, official FAQ.

[evmori]

Hunt,

Excellent idea! FAQ's on the National site or each Council site would be great!

 

Try this - The Troop bylaws state

"Troop dues are $5/month and due at the 2nd Troop meeting of the month."

 

How is this dealt with in the Oath & Law?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Perhaps I will be thinking I should have stood in bed, but before we go down the road of By-Laws, no By-laws, can we define what a By-law is and its use. I think we have a confusion of the term By-Law and we dont need to argue semantics with all the other things we argue about (Note, that was not an anti-semantical remark, if you wish to, ok, but I rather you wouldnt)

[SemperParatus]

Black's Law Dictionary (paraphrased) -

 

Rules adopted by an association for its governance.

[FScouter]

By-laws are like the constitution of the organization. They cover the purpose of the organization, who can be a member, how officers are elected, terms of office, rules of debate. Standing rules are adopted from time to time, such as "Refreshments will be provided by the members on a rotating basis", or "the padded chairs may not be used outdoors" or "eating is not permitted during meetings".

[ScoutMomAng]

Dan,

 

I'm not sure if "Phil" made Eagle. My guess would be he probably did which is why the older committee members made such a big stink about it, however, I would think if somebody made Eagle there would be a bigger to-do about the Eagle Award. At the last Court of Honor, two weeks ago, he was only presented with the three Merit Badges...so I guess I can not truthfully answer that question. Sorry, but remember I'm very new to the troop. One Court of Honor, one committee meeting, that's it.

 

Ang

[dan]

The reason I asked was if he did not earn his eagle and it was because of the merit badge he earned but a eagle BOER denied him, he should contest the BOR. There are a few posters on this forum that can tell you how to contest the BOR if you wish to.

One of my beefs with posters on this board, is that they will not tell the scouts, if they think that they have been unfairly judged at a BOR that there is a process that the scout can take, to make sure that all is on the up and up. The would rather leave the scout and parents in the dark and run the program as they see fit.

 

Welcome to Boy Scouts, you are in a great place to learn about the BSA, if you listen to the right posters. This forum has really helped me understand the BSA program.

[Bob White]

Just to clarify, If "phil" did not have all Eagle requirements complete by his 18th Birthday except for his board of review, then he did not get the eagle rank. even national will not allow that with out a severe medical reason filed in advance of his birthday.

 

One "bylaw" down, can we have another please?

 

BW

[evmori]

Try this - The Troop bylaws state

"Troop dues are $5/month and due at the 2nd Troop meeting of the month."

 

How is this dealt with in the Oath & Law?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

Ed, repeating this question is wasting our time. Bob has already stated that there's nothing wrong with a troop putting something like their meeting times in writing, and nobody else has disagreed. And Ed, I assume you agree that a troop's bylaws should never contradict any of BSA's rules or requirements, right?

 

So there are really only two questions, in my mind:

 

1. Is there any value to a troop having by-laws or rules that restate or summarize existing BSA rules?

 

Example: A troop bylaw or rule that accurately restates keye elements of the Guide to Safe Scouting.

 

2. Is there any value in making rules or bylaws on policy matters that are not directly addressed in BSA rules, but are rather based on interpretations of the Oath and Law?

 

Example: A troop bylaw or rule that states Gameboys are not allowed on troop campouts because their use disrupts the program and is not Courteous.

[FScouter]

A long time ago one of the troop committee members and I (SM) thought it would be important to have a set of written bylaws. I took on this task. The first step was to write down several categories of topics that were important: advancement rules, election process for leaders (boys and adults), rules about money and spending it, discipline and punishment, appeals process, etc., etc., etc. We copied bylaws from about 12 or 15 other troops and began the process of taking the best ideas from these other bylaws, adding our own, and distilling everything down into one document. I spent a lot, (a LOT) of time making sure every possible point was covered so that any question that ever came up in the troop could be answered from the bylaws book. After much editing and distilling the 8th draft of this document was 72 pages long.

 

Then came the fun part. Copies of the draft were distributed to the committee members and we began discussions. After several monthly committee meetings, we barely got beyond page 5. There were so many "what if" questions that came up that we simply got bogged down and stuck.

 

I looked for help and answers and found it on this forum. The result was that the 72 page draft book of bylaws was condensed down to a 6 half-sheet page booklet and re-named a Parent Guide. Copies were made and distributed to everyone.

 

Since then new boys have come into the troop and soon there were no more Guides to hand out. I found that there was nothing in the Guide that could not be communicated with a short in-person welcome to the boy and his parents. I tell them when we meet, that dues are $1 per meeting, where the Scout Shop is, and that the Patrol Leaders' Council plans the troop activities. I tell them about the Scout Promise and Scout Law, and that the boy will need a Handbook. There isn't much more to tell. The boys learn the details about what is needed and expected by being active in the troop.

 

I never would have believed it at the time, but our troop functions very well with nothing more than the Boy Scout Handbook, the Scoutmaster handbook, the Committee Guide, and training. I cannot tell you how much of a relief it is not having our troop burdened by "by-laws".

[evmori]

Ed, repeating this question is wasting our time. Bob has already stated that there's nothing wrong with a troop putting something like their meeting times in writing, and nobody else has disagreed.

 

I only repeated it because no one answered it. Where did Bob state this was OK? He has stated he thinks Troop bylaws have no place in Scouting.

 

And Ed, I assume you agree that a troop's bylaws should never contradict any of BSA's rules or requirements, right?

 

Yes I agree.

 

Hunt,

To answer your questions.

 

1. Not really.

2. These would be OK.

 

FScouter,

72 pages????? Way too much! Anything more than one page is too much.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

FScouter, your story makes me think even more that a solution to this would be a good, official FAQ on www.scouting.org. If we had that, there would be no reason for by-laws that should be the same for every troop, and nobody would have to reinvent the wheel. Then, if the troop needed to have anything in writing, it would only be those things that are different from other troops--things like meeting times, financial arrangements, etc.

 

But I still challenge all those who claim not to have rules beyond BSA's rules and the Oath and Law to ask yourself honestly whether you have unwritten rules that just get restated when the situation arises (i.e., whether cell phones or Gameboys can be taken on campouts). To put a point on it, if you're planning a campout and a new scout asks, "Can I bring my cellphone?"--who answers, and what do they say?

[ScoutMomAng]

Well, I must say that I've only been on this forum for almost 6 months (I think) and I have learned a lot! I love this place. This is the first place I go when I need answers. Our council isn't the best run council and because of that I'm sure many of our troops and packs are not the best run either, but we are doing the best we can with what we have. When I took Webelos Training last year I can honestly say I did not learn a thing! : )

 

I'm new to the troop but I have been with my son through cub scouts (his leader for the last 3 years) and I've been in Girl Scouts for four years. This is my first encounter with BOY Scouts, but I plan on sticking around for a long time. Many of our parents on our committee have been around for a long time but only with this council and this troop. Some of our parents have been here and there. I promise you, that I'm not a quiet person and I will see that things get done for the boys.

 

I appreciate the information on how to contest a BOR. I keep getting new information everyday about the situation at hand and I found out, to make matters worse, is that the "Phil" earned these same three badges within another council, however, there are no records, which in turn forced the boy to have to do them again, which in my opinion may have been the reason he had the cards for over a year before completing the merit badge work. My guess is since he turned 18 somewhere mid-April and he received his last three merit badges end of April he must not have made his Eagle, but who knows. I could still be very very wrong.

 

I do know that the old SM is not my favorite person and has not been for the past 3 years, and to know now, that he added his own rules to make by-laws makes me not like him even more.

 

I will let everybody know when it comes time to sit down Monday for a review of the By-laws the stuff I know and I will make sure I have the books that were mentioned above at hand to prove to them that their really seems no need to have a by-laws if we just run this troop the way the BSA has designed it to run. We have a few newer parents, not as new as me, that prefer to sit and listen but not make waves. I promise I'm the wave maker! : )

 

Thanks again, for all your help, and keep feeding me more information I like it!

 

Bob---when I get more by-laws (which I don't think I will after Monday), I will send them your way!

 

Ang

[ScoutMomAng]

Hi all,

 

Finally got a copy of our "by-laws"...they really aren't by-laws. They are more or less JOB discriptions! I asked our committee Chairperson where the by-laws were. She said those were it! I said, "Well....where in here does it say that a parent can NOT be a merit badge counselor for their own child?" She said, "It doesn't". I said, "then whats all the big fuss?" She said she thinks it should be that way...then came my "I don't think we need bylaws. The BSA has policies for us to follow and if we do it like they planned then everything will work out okie dokie!"

 

Of course then came the big stink about, "so you think we should just take the boy and his parents word for it?" I said that is what we are trying to instill in the boys, to be trustworthy. She said, but there has to be two deep leadership.

 

I don't think she was ready for me because I told her the BSA does not say two deep leadership for merit badges it says the scout must use the buddy system and it allows for another parent, sibling, relative, another scout etc. BSA says we should take their word on it and that is what I believe we need to do. If you can't tell your scout that you trust him how are you going to teach him to be trustworth? She said, "so you are telling me that you believe all the boys in this room drive the speed limit all the time?" Of course I think this is comparing apples to oranges and is irrelevant to the subject at hand. Needless to say, we did not accomplish much except the fact that I believe one thing and she believes another.

 

I have since found out that our commitee chair may have a hidden agenda. Her son did not make his Eagle for whatever reason and has since dropped out of scouting. She also believes that if a parent is a merit badge counselor the boy should have another merit badge counselor (any counselor) double check his work where his parent has signed off. I told her that too goes against BSA policy.

 

Anyway, we have another meeting next Thursday "to go over the bylaws". I will stand my ground and once again say, "We don't need no stinking by-laws!" but I see it as going to be a long battle.

 

Any help or wisdom??????

 

Ang