About this Methods Thing...

[OldGreyEagle]

Ok, Ed doesn't seem to think the Methods of Scouting are required, who agrees or disagrees or Ed, do I have your stance wrong?

[FScouter]

The Mission of Scouting cannot be achieved without achieving the Aims of Scouting. The Aims cannot be achieved without using the Methods. A program without the Methods is not Scouting.

 

Adults that play this Game with a Purpose without using the Methods are not qualified to be leaders in this Movement.

[cajuncody]

Ok, Please don't take this the wrong way as I am trying to get my pack back to following the program and see the methods of scouting as a clear path to achieving the aims of scouting. But, to play Devils advocate . . .

Methods are simply that, methods. You could have a disease and the doctor tell you that there are 9 methods of curing it and method 3 is the one for you. Just because there is more than one method doesn't (in all cases) mean that you have to follow all of them, unless of course it is a "method to madness" Having said that I can see where some folks would think that just because there are X number of methods that it is not written in stone that you follow all of them.

Me, personally, I am trying to use all the methods I can to rebuild a pack so my above answer is hypothetical.

Kristi

[NIscouter]

OGE - Great question. I think the use of all the methods is important. I agree with CC that you may find that one or another method works the best today, BUT next week, month, or year, you may (or should I say will) find that the group dynamics have changed and the method that worked before isn't now and you need to utilize another method for achieving the aims of scouting. I guess that I see the methods like the parts of a foundation of a house. The different parts of the foundation are all important, and sometimes one part takes more of the load than the other. Aslo, some of the parts need the "support" of the others to function properly.

[evmori]

No OGE you have what I posted correct. They aren't required. But they are needed. They are methods - ways of doing things.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

There are eight sparkplugs on an eight cylinder engine. Can you remove one and still get down the road? Sure. Will it be as smooth of a ride and will your fuel efficiency be as good? No. What happens when you pull a second, third and fourth sparkplug? The methods were derived at with a purpose and they all work together to accomplish the aims of Scouting. Me? I like a fine tuned engine. If others want to drive a lurching, chugging, fume belching machine down the road, more power to them. I'll see you at the end of the journey if you make it.

[Eamonn]

If we truly want to deliver the Cub Scout Program we have to know what we are trying to do. Just having a group of little fellows meeting once a week doing crafts is not Cub Scouting.

Sure there are units that seem to think that they have a better understanding of the Cub Scouting program than what has been tried and tested.

There are times when these new ideas seem to work, but if we could get away from thinking of the pack as being owned by the Cub Scouts and Leaders that are there today and start thinking long term. We need to think of the pack as something that we are just looking after till the next group of little fellows and the next group of adults come along. We are just passing through but we want to leave the pack in better shape than we found it.

The purposes of Cub Scouting are clearly defined as being:

Cub Scouting has the following purposes:

Influence a boy's character development and spiritual growth.

Develop habits and attitudes of good citizenship.

Encourage good sportsmanship and pride in growing strong in mind and body.

Improve understanding within the family.

Strengthen a boy's ability to get along with other boys and respect other people..

Foster a sense of personal achievement by developing new interests and skills.

Provide fun and exciting new things to do.

Show a boy how to be helpful and do his best.

Prepare him to become a Boy Scout.

These purposes do make Cub Scouting different from other youth meetings, but there is nothing really difficult.

As for the methods, I fail to see how anyone could say that they are delivering a Cub Scout program and not use the methods:

METHODS OF CUB SCOUTING

Home and Neighborhood Centered

Cub Scouting happens in the community where boys live.

Parent Involvement

Family involvement is an essential part of Cub Scouting. Whomever is the adult partner for the boy is the family we are talking about,

Advancement Plan

Advancement provides fun for the boys, gives them a sense of personal achievement, teaches them to do their best, and strengthens family understanding as family members work together on projects.

The Den

A small group of boys work together in den meetings, where they learn good sportsmanship, good citizenship, getting along with others, new skills, and to do their best.

The Ideals

The Cub Scout Promise and the Law of the Pack, and the Cub Scout sign, handshake, motto, and salute -- all teach good citizenship and contribute to a boy's sense of belong.

The Uniform

The uniform helps build pride, encourages good behavior, provides a place for the proper display of badges, and identifies members as part of the worldwide organization of Scouting.

Activities

Games, projects, skits, songs, trips, service projects, and other events let boys have fun and learn new skills.

Sure I have seen and know very small packs where the Den isn't a Den as we might think of one. But the Pack Committee, the Leaders and the Chartering Organization have high hopes that in time the pack will grow and Dens will work as they should.

There are Cub Scouts who for some reason don't have a full uniform again this becomes a goal.

To my way of thinking we have something that works, changing it is like reinventing the wheel.

Eamonn

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Ed,

 

Since the Methods are not required but important, does that mean you are doing something else?

 

FB(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[evmori]

Fuzzy,

No. The uniform isn't required either but I wear it for all Scout functions.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fuzzy Bear]

Ed,

 

I was hesitant about asking but I thought that your answer would be what I would hear. In written form, several thought that there needed to be a quick-start for you but I see once again words just get in the way.

 

FB

[Trevorum]

I agree with Ed on this one. The methods are NOT requirements. They are tried and true WAYS of achieving the aims. They are strongly suggested by countless successfull units for the last 95 years, but they are not requirements.

 

Beaver - bad analogy. Scouting is not engineered with tolerances like an internal combustion engine. It is a social construct. There is a much greater degree of variability in the personalities, needs, and abilities of any given group of boys than any gallon of gas, or any set of plugs.

 

Hopefully, all units will use all of the methods. However, it is a certainty that units will use different MIXES of the methods. Some stress uniforms and insist that everyone go camping in full field uniform. If that works for them, great. Some stress advancement (and end up being called "merit badge mills"). Some de-emphasize outdoors (see thread on Blazer Scouts, for example). Some teach leadership more than others. The point is that trained adult leaders should use the tools the programs provides (read "methods") to create an optimal environment for achieving the goals of scouting.

 

After all, that's the whole point, isn't it?

[FScouter]

There may be more than one way to skin a cat. It is possible to prepare young people to make ethical choices by not using the Methods of Boy Scouting. There are other youth programs that do this. It can be done in the home by a set of good parents. These groups and these parents can be successful. They may be skinning the cat, but they are not doing Scouting.

 

Scouting is not defined by simply fulfilling the Mission. Scouting is fulfilling the mission through the Aims and Methods. All of them. If you want to do Scouting, the Methods are required. It does not say heres a few suggestions, try them if you like, or invent your own ideas.

 

A boy is not required to have a uniform. That does not mean the troop may skip the uniform method. A youth program without a uniform is not Scouting. A program without youth leadership is not Scouting. A program without personal growth is not Scouting. A program without all 8 methods is not Scouting.

 

Scouting is defined by the Mission, the Aims, and the Methods. None of that is required. Scouting is not required. Re-invent the wheel, do other stuff, be successful, and have a nice day, but other stuff is not Scouting.

 

[Eamonn]

I think what I am about to post is not going to go over very well and there will be some people who will really disagree with me.

I have never ever looked upon myself as Gods Gift to Scouting. I hope and like to think that I try to make and get my point across in a kindly and understanding way.

I have all the time in the world for the Leader who doesn't know, maybe because he is new or has been unfortunate enough to come up through Scouting in a unit that has not done things the way they were supposed to be done.

But I have a real hard time dealing with the guys who knowingly chose not to follow the program. I think what they are doing is nothing more than being down right arrogant.

At Eagle Scout BOR's I sometimes ask the Scout" If we were to take out or remove one of the Scout Laws, which one would you remove?" Most times the Lad thinks about it and says that they should all stay. I wonder if I were to ask adults what method should be removed? if they would say that they all need to stay?

Why should playing a game by the rules be so darn difficult?

Sure we can say that the methods are not required. Sure we could say that we don't need Patrols, you could go through the BSA rules, bylaws and charter and there is no rule that says that a troop must have patrols, but what happens to Patrol activities and the Patrol Leaders? Sure we can say we don't need to ever do outdoor activities, again there is no hard and fast rule. There are a lot of fairly strong recommendations but there is no rule.

I could go on about the lack of hard fast rules.

At the end of the day this is the BSA, not the ESA (Eamonn's Scouts of America)

Of course there are times when we put more effort into one method than the others.

In the District that I serve we have a good many of the: We don't do it that way, or the we tried it once and it didn't work SM's.

The methods they seem to want to ignore the most are Uniform: Sad to say we have leaders who think that they can make changes to the uniform by saying we only require this or that uniform part, some go as far as adding for BOR's we require dress pants or we don't allow jeans. The uniform is the uniform and being a Scout. In this day and age, many would have you believe that the uniform really isn't all that important; that a Scout is as much a Scout in T-shirt and jeans as he is in khaki and green. That's partly true, but the uniform is more than a set of clothes. It's more than simply a place to display achievements. It is a symbol of the boy's commitment to Scouting - his acceptance of Scouting's ideals and willingness to live by them.

Scouts who do not wear a uniform usually do not have a complete understanding of Scouting or the commitment they have been asked to make. Many Scouts will tell you that the uniform doesn't look good, it doesn't fit well, or it isn't very good for outdoor activities. In some respects, this is true, but they are superficial concerns. Perhaps they don't understand that the uniform is a symbol of their commitment and, not wearing the uniform is a sign that they lack that commitment.

The other method that they seem to dislike is Patrols.The Patrol is the basic unit of Scouting. It is a perfectly sized group of Scouts with a common purpose. When properly formed, the Patrol is more than a group; it's a team and each member has a job to do. In a Patrol, the Scout first begins learning about citizenship, making decisions, and doing things for himself. He counts on the other members of his Patrol to do their part, just as they count on him to do his.

Membership in a Patrol leads to opportunities for leadership, so this method is also important to other methods in this list. Everything in Scouting can and should be done using the Patrol method, and Patrols should be more than just a list of names. The group should be real, and it should have real things to do. Its leaders should be real leaders, with real authority.

I can just imagine the hue and cry if the Eagle Scout BOR, were to send Scouts back because they had not met responsibility requirement in holding a POR. Surely there needs to more to meeting this requirement than just wearing a meaningless patch? But to give it real meaning there has to be an environment where the Scouts are allowed to take on real responsibility, which means that we get into Leadership development.

When we the adults decide that we are going to take on a leadership position in this organization, we take on playing this game by the rules. We do not have the authority to pick and choose what bits we like and what bits we want to ignore.

If we can't play this game by the rules, maybe it's time to rethink if this is the right game or if we really belong in this organization.

I used to subscribe to the idea that some sort of program is better than none, but I see the harm that is being done by adults who think they know more than anybody and every body, and I now think that we would be better off without them.

If this makes me a member of the book Thumpers union, sign me up.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

While I have always agreed that nowhere in the BSA resources will you find the words "the Methods of scouting are required" I do not see how they can be ignored or unused if you are to have any integrity as a Scout leader.

 

The whole purpose of being a volunteer leader should be to deliver the best possible scouting program you can, and it is the Methods that make it a scouting program. Until you understand and incorporate the methods into the program you are serving as a leader, you are not scouting. Even if you where a complete uniform.

 

What boggles my mind is not the new leader who has not learned these methods, or the fairly new leader who is still learning how they are used. What amazes me is the 'experienced leader', the one who is trained and trains others, who still rejects or debates in opposition to the use or purpose of not only the methods but other aspects of the BSA program as well.

 

If Eamonn can write something with the understanding that some will not like it then I guess I can to.

 

This forum could be a great tool to learn about delivering a quality scouting program. But that doesn't mean that anybody with a Scout uniform in the closet and a keyboard should consider themselves a teacher. If you lose half your new scouts every year, if you don't understand the how or why the methods work, if you can't keep the majority of your scouts after they turn 16, if your troop is 1/3 the size it was two years ago, if you have never finished the courses for basic leader training in your position, then you need to realize you are a student not a teacher. You need to be asking questions and considering some personal changes, not offering opinions and telling people "your way" of scouting.

 

Lastly, this is the internet, in case no one ever told you, some people on the internet lie. There are posters on this forum who are not what they claim to be. You need to choose who you listen to. There are posters who say "this is what I do". What they fail to tell you is that thier program failed or is failing. There are posters here who claim to have experience that they do not have and they use that false background as evidence of knowledgethe. The best way to make sure that what you are hearing is accuate you need to put more trust in the official resources of the BSA than you put in the writings of ANY poster here. You need to know your job and how to do it according to the BSA program not according to anyone here. You need to learn the program you volunteered to lead.

 

Nothing any one of us posts will replace knowing the BSA program. The person who tells you that the Methods do not work, or are hypocritical, or are not required, either never learned them or never used them correctly.

 

Bob White

 

Thump, thump, thump.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Group Rant with no Targets, pretty funny.

FB