Venture Patrol ASM Needs Advice

[AGarbers]

Hello All,

I recently volunteered to become one of two ASMs over the newly created Venture Patrol. When I agreed to this new position I was thinking it would be made of hand-picked boys that exemplified Boy Scouts. Instead, it was opened to all Scouts that met the age and rank requirements. While this sounds OK, many of the boys that want to be in the Venture Patrol are very un-Scout like at times and are very disruptive during the troop meetings. Now, I know in most cases this is because they are older and are bored with the programs we have. I also realize this is a chance to bring the older scouts back into the troop. So, I purchased the Varsity/Venture Program Features Vol. I-I-III hoping we could put together a high-adventure program and then reward them for their efforts with the Venture V and activity pins.

But, I have a personal issue. My son, now an Eagle Scout, is the current SPL and has been for over nine months now. (Thats a whole other story) He and I have racked our brains every week trying to come up with fun and exciting programs for the meetings. (No, we dont have a good PLC, and no one told us about the Troop Program Features until a month ago!!!) During this time, many of the disruptive scouts have done nothing but dog him and belittle his efforts. (One of them even wrote an impeachment letter and got many of the other disruptive scouts to sign it.) Now, just as his tenure as SPL is ending, these same boys will be his patrol members. I have to admit, I will have a hard time wanting to have them around. But, on the other hand, I also feel I should give them another chance and perhaps turn them around.

Too this end, I made and printed Venture patrol guidelines, that were approved by the Scoutmaster, and the other ASM. They were handed out about a month ago.

I have also planned a high-adventure outing this weekend at a local 3-D archery shoot that is free, if the scouts wear their complete uniform. I figure this will show them what scouting could be like, if they play ball.

 

 

I have several questions and concerns that I need help on.

1. I was hoping there was a set of requirements for each of the programs in the Varsity Program Features. There is not. They just look like suggestions to me. If you have a varsity program, what requirements do you achieve before saying the program is complete and handing out pins. An example is fishing. (Many of the scouts say they want to go fishing, and I am an avid fisherman.)

 

2. In the guidelines, wearing the complete uniform is a must. Few of the scouts are wearing them. (I and my son wear complete uniforms right down to the socks.) I feel, if they dont wear their complete uniform 75% of the time, they cant be in the VP. I want them to wear the uniform to set an example for the other scouts and to give them something to aspire to. My vision of the VP was to be like the knights of old, doing great deeds, acting honorably, being scoutly.

 

3. The elected VPL is an Eagle Scout, is very disruptive, and quite often late to each meeting. How can I work with a PL if hes not there, or is late?

 

4. Now that youve said, elect a new PL, what do you do when no one else wants it? (This is mainly because none of the good scouts want to deal with the bad scouts.)

 

5. How much of the patrol time should I use to lecture on the current program. Or should the scouts lecture themselves?

 

6. At what point do you give up on a bad scout. I plan on going to Wood Badge this fall, but the boys cant wait until then, and nobody else want to deal with them. The SM wants several of them to leave the troop and to be honest; it would make my life easier if they did. Im sure some of you might say I might not be the person for the job, and you may be right, but I do want to try.

 

7. We have about 14 boys that are in the VP. I could divide them up. I think most of the bad scouts would band together in one, and the good scouts in another. Then they each could elect a PL. Advice?

 

I am sure I will think of other things as you give advice. Thanks for your help.

Alan

 

[Eamonn]

Hi and Welcome,

I really do feel for you and do admire that you are going to do something wonderful.

This is very important that you look at what you are doing and realize that it is going to be wonderful, even if it is going to take a while.

We serve the Scouts that we are dealt!! The Venture Patrol is not necessarily the "Gifted Scouts Program" The best thing you can do is forget about "hand-picked boys that exemplified Boy Scouts"

Then toss the book of Guidelines in the fire.

Reading between the lines, I think that the Troop may need some help with looking at, understanding and using the methods of Scouting.

I have since Christmas been training Rory a Golden Retriever pup. Together we have come a long way we have mastered sit, down, no jump, and are working on Come, stay and heel. I know that he is going to be a big dog and I don't want 70 + pounds of untrained dog making my life a misery. We are working on Stay. Before we could get to Stay we had to master Sit and down. I try to make his training sessions fun and no more than 20 minutes. That being about all he can take without getting frustrated.

The Lads in the Venture Patrol may not have had the basics yet and if you try to change everything all at one time they will not be able to keep up with you and will become frustrated.

Get to know these Lads, find out what makes them tick the more you know the more effective a Leader you will be.

Take the time to really listen to them. Find out what their strengths and soft.

spots are.

Some wise person in these forums, I think it was Hunt? Posted a while back "More carrot and less stick." I just love this.

After listening to the Scouts you will be able to find out if you need to split the group into two Patrols. Yes I know that I have posted that 6 -8 is my idea of the ideal Patrol size, but with these older Lads they might be so busy with other activities that having two Patrols of 7 and only having 7 show up might make a Patrol of 3 or 4 seem silly?

Do let them select their own Patrol, they will work better working with people that they like rather than people they have been made to work with.

Stop shopping for programs, the Venture Patrol is part of the Boy Scout Troop, it isn't Venturing or Varsity it is what it is. Use the Boy Scout Handbook and the Field Guide.

Find out what these Scouts really want to do, listen to their suggestions. There is time this year to pull some things together, but the time is fast approaching when the troop should be making the Annual Plan. The Patrol Leaders from the Venture Patrol need to attend this meeting armed with the knowledge of what the Lads in the Patrols they lead want to do. Maybe one big event will set the agenda for most of the year. If they plan to go to Sea-base there is a lot of activities that they could be doing to prepare for the time that they will be at Sea-base.

If the Lads in the Venture Patrol have never been asked what they want to do? before now (Have never really had a working PLC) this will be new to them. You might want to meet with the Patrol Leaders and offer some suggestions. Not bribes for being good - They do not want to be treated like little kids.

Don't try and water down the ideas that they have or worse still dismiss their ideas. I always informed the PLC that we would do everything we could to bring what they wanted to become a reality. I tried to explain to them that some things took a lot of hard work and explain that sure we could go almost anywhere and do almost anything, but if they wanted to go to Timbuktu we would need to look at fund raising. If they wanted to go Kayaking in Ireland we would have to build more canoes.

I don't understand your question about lecturing? Forget lecturing and start listening, once they come up with an idea of what they want to do, you can lead them to the resources and support them as they prepare to do what it is they want to do. They might need help going over skills that they learned on the road to First Class and you can be the resource that they need. You will find that there are a lot of people in your Council or District that have done activities that you can suggest to the Patrol Leaders and if they find out that this is something they want to do the guys from the Council or District in most cases are willing to explain how they went about doing it.

Get them to think big. Fishing is fine, Cub Scouts hold Fishing Derby's. I don't know what part of the country you are in? But I hear the fishing in Canada is outstanding.

How do you work with a PL that isn't there? You find out where he is and bring the mountain to him, you counsel him and remind him of his duties, you call him the day before the meeting, E-mail him. Tie a knot in his hankie If all else fails you work with the APL, that's why we have APL's.

This Bad Scout thing is a pain. Why is he a bad Scout? Is the program that boring that it isn't holding his interest? Does he not like being lectured? Is he hearing that he is a bad Scout and just living up to expectations?

If he is that bad why does he attend meetings?

Try and put yourself in his shoes. How do you see the meetings? How do you see what is being done for him?

We are Scouter's to serve the Scouts and deliver the program. If he really doesn't want the program maybe he will quit. But I always felt that in some small way I had been part of the problem. I didn't lose sleep over it, but I took some responsibility for a Lad quitting.

So you need to take a time out, grab a pen and paper, sit down and read the Vision and Mission statements of the BSA. Focus on the words Fun and Adventure. Grab a Boy Scout Handbook and read what we promise our Scouts when they join.

Now write down where you would like to see these Venture Patrols in 3 months, 6 months and a year from now.

Then write down ten things that you (Not Them) Are going to do to get to your 12 month goal.

My list might look something like

1/ I am going to listen to the Lads in the Venture Patrol

2/ I'm not going to lecture them but will explore and find fun ways of getting my point or the skill they need across to them.

3/ I will attend R/T meetings to explore what other troops are doing.

4/ I will learn a new skill and maybe have them join me in learning it. (Advanced First Aid, white water rafting come to my mind)

5/We will do one outdoor activity every month. Even if it is only for two Scouts.

6/ I will work on how I communicate with the Scouts.

7/I will do everything I can to catch each and every Scout doing something right and will congratulate him.

8/ I will use all the methods of Scouting

9/ I will go out of my way to bring the "Lost Sheep" back to the fold.

10/When I think I have lost my way I will use the Oath and Law to bring me back.

This would be my list. Your list would suit the needs of the Scouts that you serve.

Eamonn.

[AGarbers]

Thanks for your help.

"I don't understand your question about lecturing? Forget lecturing and start listening, once they come up with an idea of what they want to do, you can lead them to the resources and support them as they prepare to do what it is they want to do."

 

What I meant is this: I want to provide them with the opportunity to achieve the Venturing V and activity pins to place on their sash, by doing the activities as outlined in the VP Program Features. I feel having a set of requirements to fulfill before receiving each pin would be best and give them a very clear idea of what they need to do to get it. I also feel we need to become more knowledgeable on the material of each program, like fishing. As a child I didnt know what the different lures did or how to work them. I didnt know what the different types of reels and rods did. The list goes on. They picked fishing as one of the higher adventures they wanted to go on. I feel as older scouts they should be taught advanced techniques, beyond just the worm, hook, and bobber. These are what I was going to lecture about. The same goes for other activities. I feel the needs to learn advanced information.

The troop went to BWCA last year but we really dont have the funds or time to travel the country. My idea is to find comparable activities here in central Indiana. As far as fishing goes, I was thinking of three fishing sessions during this summer. One on the local river for 30 pound-plus catfish, one at the district scout camp for bass and bluegill, and one at the local state forest coal pit lakes for a little of both. I figured that after these outings and a few other service projects in each area, they should have fulfilled the requirements.

When I talk to the boys about what they want to do, I get blank stares. So, I suggested the fishing idea. I also suggested caving, as there are hundreds of caves within fifty miles. I suggested attending a Civil War enactment, and perhaps actually being in it. I suggested canoe camping on the local river. I suggested bicycling to the local state forest (10 15 miles away) and camping there.

They loved all of these ideas and none of them take a great deal of money to achieve. I am hoping they will come up with other ideas as they see what can be done locally.

 

This Bad Scout thing is a pain. Why is he a bad Scout? Is the program that boring that it isn't holding his interest? Does he not like being lectured? Is he hearing that he is a bad Scout and just living up to expectations?

If he is that bad why does he attend meetings?

Try and put yourself in his shoes. How do you see the meetings? How do you see what is being done for him?

 

The majority of the problems stem from one scout. He is an Eagle Scout that in many respects should never have been made an Eagle. (After he got his rank I overheard him telling the younger scouts that they didnt really need to fulfill the requirements for merit badges, just say they did! He then told them thats what he did!) This is one of the reasons that I want defined requirements to achieve the pins. (At one meeting I stated we would actually do each requirement, and not just say we did, and there was some very nervous laughter)

This same scout is from a long line of brothers (4) that all achieved the Eagle rank, so I feel there was a lot of pressure placed upon him to perform.

This same scout has brought chewing tobacco on campouts, led other scouts in racial chants, started fires in dangerous situations, and other infractions. ( I have seen some of it and heard about the rest from my son, and other scouts.) His family used to be heavily involved in scouts but now is rarely seen. I have been told by other adult leaders that when approached with the problem, it pretty much, Oh well. Boys will be boys.

He disrupts each and every meeting he attends, and this leads many of the marginal scouts a stray. He disdains the uniform and openly mocks those that wear it. I know for a fact we have lost younger scouts that were turned off by his actions and those he leads a stray.

I feel he attends because of his brother who is now the VP PL. His brother can also be disruptive, but he is a good leader at times and tries to help the younger boys. Like I said he is always late, and often not there.

Many of the other boys I feel would not cross over to the dark side if they werent trying to look cool by mocking the ones that try to act scoutly. Here again, I feel this goes back to just one or two of the older scouts.

 

Again, thanks for your help.

 

[scoutldr]

To avoid confusion of others who may be reading, a "Varsity Team" is a separate type of unit...it is not part of a BS Troop. There are "Venture Patrols" and "Venturing Crews", the latter also being a separate unit which may or may not be associated with a Troop.

 

As I understand the program, the VP concept was created to keep older scouts interested and active, centered around High Adventure (not the "Super Scout" concept). As older scouts (indeed, Eagles), they still have an obligation to be leaders, mentors and role models for the younger scouts. This is a concept that perhaps you need to explain more clearly? The fact that they may, on occasion, participate as a patrol in High Adventure activities doesn't mean that they don't participate in the other troop activities. If this is not what you intend, then perhaps a new Venture Crew should be formed with a unique committee, Advisor, Crew President, etc.

 

The rules for the Venture Patrol should be the same as the other Scouts in the troop (because they are part of the troop, under the SPL, not a separate entity). Behavior according to the Scout Oath and Law should be the minimum expectation. If they can't or won't do that, they may be asked to leave ("Eagle" or not), rather than ruin the experience for the rest of the troop. I would suggest a parent's meeting with the scouts present, and make sure the expectations are clear, then follow through with consequences. Good luck!(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Eamonn]

Now I am confused!!

Is this a Boy Scout Troop or a Varsity Scout team?

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=Varsity&x=23&y=14

States:

Varsity Scouts are members of a Varsity Scout team chartered to a community organization, such as a church or service club. It is led by a youth Varsity Scout team captain and an adult leader called a Varsity Scout Coach. The Coach is supported by an adult committee, made up of parents and members of the chartered organization. It is a stand-alone unit, chartered independently of a Scout troop, but the chartering procedure is essentially the same.

So is this a Troop or not???

Eamonn

 

The team may be divided into squads, and each squad elects a youth squad leader.

 

 

[AGarbers]

If you're referring to my original posting, I am talking about a Venture Patrol, made up of the older boys within our troop. The literature I am referring to is the Varsity Team Program Features, for Varsity Scout Teams and Venture Patrols. (This is directly off the cover.)

Alan

[Eamonn]

You can't run the Varsity program within a Troop.

Eamonn

[AGarbers]

We are not running a Varsity Team. It is a Venture Patrol. The Varsity Team Program Features can also be used for Venture Patrols.

[Bob White]

Until very recently the Venture Patrol used the same extra awards used by a Varsity patrol or Varsity Team. You will find this information in the Scoutmaster Handbook, The Boy Scout Handbook, and in the manual referred to in AGarber's posts. (I believe some apologies are owed to AGarbers.)

 

Recently the varsity program was removed from the troop program and made an independent unit. It is my understanding that in the last few months the Varsity awards formerly used by Venture Patrols Will only be made available now to the Varsity Teams and not Venture Patrols.

 

I have no official document to share at this time but I will try to find one.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eamonn]

Hi Bob,

I copied from the BSA web site:

Varsity Scouts are members of a Varsity Scout team chartered to a community organization, such as a church or service club. It is led by a youth Varsity Scout team captain and an adult leader called a Varsity Scout Coach. The Coach is supported by an adult committee, made up of parents and members of the chartered organization. It is a stand-alone unit, chartered independently of a Scout troop, but the chartering procedure is essentially the same.

I think this makes it clear that the Venture Patrol and the Varsity Teams are two different programs and need to be treated as such.

As ever I welcome your thoughts.

Eamonn.

[Bob White]

I do not disagree that they are separate programs, however they have for quite a while shared the same awards. See page 143 of the Scoutmaster Handbook, pages 420-421 of the Boy Scout Handbook, and also the reference that AGarbers shared.

 

AGarbers had made it clear that he is asking about Venture Patrols, and he was correct to use the resource that he had for both Varsity and Venture. For years the Varsity Team and the Venture Patrol shared the same award system. (not advancement, the Venture Patrol used the same rank advancement as the troop.)

BW