Need advice on ASM, please help.

[DengarOne]

Need some advice ASAP, troop and committee meeting tonight Friday April 22nd 7:30 PM EST, any help will be appreciated.

 

The Problem.

 

At the beginning of this year our scoutmaster stepped down and the troop committee elected me as the new scoutmaster. Being a member of the troop through-out my life and having earned Eagle scout in this troop, I accepted the position and vowed to complete the task to the best of my ability. At the committee meeting I was presnted with goals of the troop. The committee in return told me that the troop would run through me, all ASMs would pass their ideas through me, and the SPL wopuld work closely with me and my first assitant to create a program suitable for the entire troop.

 

Things worked fine for the first month or so of the year. Recently though, we have had an adult return to the meetings after a long absense(he was coordinating use of the troop web site before he decided to attend meetings regularly). Basically he did not get along well with the old SM and now wanted to get involved again on a meeting and event level. I appreciated the help and gave him the responsibility of ASM Patrol advisor, which is what he asked to be. I told him the procedures of the troop and how if he had an ideas or concerns to pass them through me before embarking on them so we can talk about these ideas as a group.

 

Recently he has been barking orders at the youth of the troop, going behind my back to change meeting plans and agendas and has even told me and other adults in the troop, "I am in charge of the patrols."

 

On Wednesday of this week he tried to change nexts weeks PLC meeting to accomodate his schedule. He sent out a mass e-mail to the PLC members (without mine or the SPLs approval) telling them the PLC will be this week and tbasically saying that everyone should change their plans accordingly. When I received this e-mail I sent an e-mail out those PLC members and told them to disregard that message and to keep the regularly scheduled PLC meeting.

 

After a few e-mail responses back and forth to him, I told him that all troop functions that conflict with a schedule need to go through me and the SPL. I added that he does not hold the authority to change any meetings or anything with-out going through the proper procedures which would be bringing it up with me and the SPL.

 

His last e-mail response was quite derogatory, he basically questioned my leadership ability and also said, "You say I can't change or add meetings as I see fit. Why is that? Where does it say that?". He also challenged my abilities as scoutmaster and my knowledge of the adult patrol method and adult procedure.

 

I am hard pressed to figure out what to do with this situation. I am angry that the situation has

escalated, but am more angry that this adult does dont understand his role in the troop. Since we have a troop committee meeting tonight should I bring this up with them? I talked to one member and he said he would rather have me talk with this ASM on the side first with other adults present.

 

Any advice is appreciated and if you feel I have done something wrong please explain so I can understand it also.

 

Thank You in advance.

 

Alfred Namendorf

 

[Lynda J]

we have an ASM that was doing the same thing. He was just out of the military and would bark orders at the boys. Finally the boys started complaining and basically ignoring him. Finally the SM went to him and reminded him that this is a BOY RUN troop. And that it up to the boys to make the rules. That they don't like the military push. He has stopped and everything is running smoothly for how.

[ljnrsu]

You do have a problem and it is not you. From what you said you have done nothing wrong.

 

First off I agree with the Committe member you do need to talk with this ASM in the presence of the other adults.

 

You need to explain that he is an advisor to the patrols ie help when needed. He is not "in charge" of them. Does he understand the principal of boy led troop? If not it needs to be explained to him. PLC meetings are set up and led by the SPL it is one of the functions of the SPL, adults should only observe and help if asked.

 

"adult patrol method" what is that,I've never heard of that one.

 

As to adult procedure, he is the one who broke that one with his action reguarding the PLC meeting.

 

It sounds like this ASM has not been to Leader Specific Training. You need to enroll him ASAP.

[dan]

Remove him from the position of Patrol advisor's, appoint someone else. Inform him that he can not sign off of any requirements for the Scouts.

Stop pussy footing around and take control of YOUR ASMs.

 

[Bob White]

Two things, tell dad you do not have time for adults who cannot play nice with others. he either does an anout face with his attitude and behavior and assists you with the thigs you ask of him in the way you need it done, or he is out.

 

Second. If you want the scouting program to work you need to use the scouting program. Your Aren't!

 

ASM Patrol Advisor? Adult Patrol Method? Adult Procedure?

 

I have no idea what those are but they are not the scouting program. Take your assistants and attendt training as a team. It will help you avoid situations that could lead to this.

 

[DengarOne]

Here is some Info for you, to help clear some things up in my original post.

 

>Second. If you want the scouting program to work you need to use the scouting program. Your Aren't!

 

 

I am following the procedure handed down to me by the council, through council literature and our councils training.

 

>ASM Patrol Advisor?

 

This position was included in the Scoutmaster packet I received from our coucil, which is Northern New Jersey Council. It was 1 of 12 different ASM positions that the council allegedly has taken from national. If it is not a position then why is it included in our Council SM packet?

 

 

 

 

>Adult Patrol Method?

 

Adult patrol Method was first introduced to me at woodbadge. The council strickly inforced the use of the adult patrol method and even runs follow up courses called, "Using the Adult Patrol Method"

 

 

>Adult Procedure?

 

Another article included not only in our SM packet but our Committee packet as well from the council.

 

>I have no idea what those are but they are not the scouting program. Take your assistants and attendt training as a team. It will help you avoid situations that could lead to this.

 

 

I have taken the training as have many of my assisstants, if our council is setting the guidelines and using these terms and procedures then I am going to use them as well.

 

Alfred Namendorf

 

[FScouter]

PLC meetings are designed for boy leaders. The SM is there only as an advisor. Additional adults alter the focus of the meeting and are detrimental.

[DengarOne]

>PLC meetings are designed for boy leaders. The SM is there only as an advisor. Additional adults alter the focus of the meeting and are detrimental.

 

 

Yes I understand that, as SM I have taken an advisory role at the PLCM and helped when asked by the SPL. The ASM has been there on occasion to accomodate 2 deep leadership. He hasn't said much at the PLCMs in the past which is why I was confused at this situation.

 

Alfred Namendorf

[Bob White]

No council has the authority to change the BSA program. You need to be following the nations resources. They are written to coordinate with the BSA handbook.

 

I think a number of us would be interested in a more specific explanation of what each of those terms mean. They are not found anywhere in the actual BSA program, and that is a part of the problem you are having. How can we help you with a program that no one else knows? If you followed the BSA program we would have common ground to work with.

 

It's quite possible that as a new leader you have confused some terminologies. There is in the BSA program positions called assistant scoutmasters for New Scout Patrols and assistant scoutmasters for Venture Patrols. There are also 8 scout methods one is called the Adult Association Method and another the Patrol Method.

 

Is it possible you have confused these terms?

 

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[DengarOne]

>It's quite possible that as a new leader you have confused some terminologies. There is in the BSA program positions called assistant scoutmasters for New Scout Patrols and assistant scoutmasters for Venture Patrols.

 

The packet which I am looking at now says - ASM Patrol Advisor: also know as ASM of new scout and venture patrols. So that clears that up I hope=)

 

 

>There are also 8 scout methods one is called the Adult Association Method and another the Patrol Method.

 

 

Perhaps when going for woodbadge the terms got confused by the trainers. I remember them saying over and over again, use the adult patrol method, perhaps to give a link between youth and adult workings in the trooop? Could that be similar to the adult association method?

 

>Is it possible you have confused these terms?

 

 

Sorry if I confused anyone.

 

Alfred Namendorf

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Sorry but since the adult patrol method does not exist I cannot tell you what it compares to. Can you explain that method along with what you recall of the "adult procedure"?

 

Also, I am curious when you took Wood Badge. There is little if any mention of the Patrol Method in the current Wood Badge training, and certainly no frequent referral to it since Wood Badge is not specifically a "boy scout leader" course any longer.

 

Since you are very new as a scoutmaster how long had you been out of youth scouting before you took the helm this January?

 

BW

 

 

[FScouter]

A PLC meeting is not a trip or outing. 2-deep leadership is not required. As long as you have no one-on-one contact, you're OK.

 

Those are indeed strange terms. I've never heard of a Scoutmaster being given a "packet" from the council. Did it include the Scoutmaster Handbook or Guide to Safe Scouting?

[Vicki]

DengarOne, I hope you got some resolution at Friday's meeting.

 

I can possibly shed some light on the "adult patrol method" - we did not use this term but during my Wood Badge course the trainers emphasized that as "adults" we were using the "patrol method" during the course in order to understand how the patrol method works. We also used the "patrol method" during leader training.

 

BW, our council most definitely still uses the patrol method as part of Wood Badge (C-12-04 was my course - beads awarded 3/10). I understand that National would prefer to de-emphasize it and perhaps, as compared to the old WB, it has been de-emphasized. I have no basis for comparison. But during our course last fall we ate, slept, learned and performed as a patrol.

 

Vicki

[KoreaScouter]

I don't know if this will make the ASM job description thing clearer or more muddy, but here I go with my $.02:

 

The SM Handbook tells us that ASMs should be given specific program responsibilities (so they aren't just standing around, so SMs can delegate, and so that ASMs can be developed into SMs themselves if so inclined). There are two specific program responsibilities mentioned of course: NSP ASM and VP ASM. OK, that takes care of two ASMs. If you have more than that, it's time to get creative. At various times in my SM tenure, I've had a Program ASM, Patrol Advisors, Life-to-Eagle ASM, an Instructor Trainer, an Advancement ASM, and others I can't recall at the moment. In my opinion, it's a good problem to have.

 

Regarding DengarOne's concern, it would appear to be something my fighter pilot co-workers would call "all airspeed, no vector". In other words, he seems energetic, but needs direction (and perhaps a reminder that we all serve at the pleasure of our CO and committee -- while you're at it, have him look up the definition of "assistant" in Websters and commit it to memory. I love that "...where does it say that?..." retort. Where does it say that? Hey, I just said it, and I was speaking English, too -- let's do a patch check: yup, mine says Scoutmaster, yours says Assistant. Harsh? Maybe, but some guys, that's all they respond to, and you'll probably only have to do it once. He'll either get with the program or leave; either way, your problem's solved).

 

Time for a closed-door, I think. Hope your COR and CC have backbones.

 

Here's a twist from a personal perspective that may seem unusual, but here goes. Anyone who wants to question my abilities as an SM can go right ahead. I don't have a monopoly on brains, and never claimed to. I'm an imperfect human, and will stipulate right up front that I make as many if not more mistakes than any other adult who's on the unit charter. If there's a better guy out there, they don't have to petition the committee to replace me; I'll do that myself. Because...it ain't about me. It's about getting the best program for the Scouts. If someone else would be better because of time, training, experience, or personality, I'll humbly step aside. I'm committed to doing my best at this, but I don't have an ounce of my ego invested in this job -- you'd be amazed at how that enables me to not take things personally. I may not have this job five minutes from now, but for the next five minutes anyway, I expect the loyalty and support of my assistants. And when I'm an assistant six minutes from now, the new SM will have my loyalty and support. If I can't provide it for whatever reason, I'll go away rather than stick around and be a thorn in his saddle.

 

KS

[Mike F]

KS,

 

Your post was a direct shack.

(Fighter pilot talk for a bomb dropped directly on intended target. I know you knew that - just translating for others who may not...)

 

-mike