2 deep leadership question

[CNYScouter]

I have switched my son to a new troop and this situation has come up. The scouts in the troop want to add a 2nd outing this month. They would like to do what they call a stealth weekend. This is where the troop splits in two on Friday night, hikes and makes camp. Then on Saturday they play a version of Capture the flag with each campsite being the home base. These campsites may be 2 to 3 miles apart depending how far they want to hike.

 

The problem is that the other adult leaders are saying that we will need four adults to go to cover the two deep leadership. Currently we only have three adults that can go so they are telling the boys unless one more adult can go we do not have two deep leadership and cannot do the trip. My take on this that we do have two deep leadership because the leaders will all be in touch by cell phones and walkie-talkies and we are going to be in close vicinity of each other.

 

I like to find others opinions on this.

 

Actually, I would like to take this one step farther and do this trip by patrol. The troop currently has three patrols and would like to see one adult go with each patrol and do a three way Capture the Flag.

 

On a similar note, it says that patrols can do outings by themselves with no adults present as long as the SM approves. Doesnt this violate the two deep rule?

 

[EagleInKY]

Okay, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. But, I think I have a pretty good grasp of the YPT rules. So let's break this down.

 

First, two deep leadership applies only to outings, which this fits that bill. But, two-deep leadership does not require two adults to be present at all times (even though it's a good idea). The rule that you have to worry about coming into play is the "no 1-on-1 contact". I could imagine, during this type of activity, it would be very easy for an adult to end up 1-on-1 with a boy (other than his son) somewhere out in the woods or at their basecamp. Thus, I see a concern.

 

Second, patrol campouts are permitted to take place without adults with the SM permission. These provide a great opportunity for boys to learn self-reliance and about what goes into planning and executing an activity. I don't think this would qualify as a patrol activity, since multiple patrols are planning on participating on Saturday.

 

Off hand, this is what I would recommend. The adult leaders should set up a HQ camp. This can be at the starting point of the hike, somewhere in the middle, or wherever you choose. The game doesn't take place here. It's a place to go in case of emergency, or if the boys need an adult for some reason. The adults should hang out there during the day. If they want to wander out in the woods, they should do so as a group, avoiding the potential 1-on-1 situation.

 

This sounds like a neat concept. Are you doing it on someone's private property? Has any other troops done anything like it?(This message has been edited by EagleInKY)

[Bob White]

Do not confuse this with a patrol outing. At troop is a gathering of patrols. This is a troop outing as such you would need a minimum of two adults present. But. because of the great distance between the patrols you would best be advised to have 4 adults, two at each site. The purpose for adults is to supervise, and even with cell phones you cannot do your job from 2 miles away, a hundred yards or so perhaps but not 2 miles.

[SemperParatus]

I agree with BW and EIKY'mon, this is not a 'patrol activity' - it is a troop outing. Having scouts run around over a couple square mile area would make me want to have as many adults present as possible, not just the bare minimum. I like EIKY'mon's approach of a HQ area during this 'very wide area game'.

[acco40]

I agree with BW - go with four adults as a minimum for safety (if not regulation) reasons. On our outings, I always try and make a contingent plan for one adult leaving for any reason (sickness, work related, family emergency) and therefore request three-deep leadership. Not required, but not a bad idea.

[Lynda J]

I agree with BW. you need 4 adults. I simply wouldn't feel safe any other way.

[EagleInKY]

I agree with everything said thus far (including me, of course ). I think a lot of it depends upon two factors. First is the location. Is it private or public? What's the terrain like? Are the boys and adults familiar with it?

 

Second is the maturity level of the boys. Are they mature enough to handle this? If not, I would go with the minimum of two adults per patrol. I still like having a central HQ, however.

 

Where are the senior leaders in all this (SPL, ASPL)? Are they participating with a patrol, or can they help provide the leadership needed? Not that they can subsitute for adults, but they can help coordinate things from a central point.

 

I remember playing a game similar back when I was a very young scout. We had "base camps" (or flags if you prefer) a great distance apart. Every boy carried a "chip" or "totem". If you were caught by the other team, you had to give them your chip. You then could not do anything (capture someone or their camp) until you went back to your basecamp to get another chip. Good "scouts" would track you back to your basecamp to capture your camp. I seem to remember having fun, but it taking forever to play (often with nobody ever capturing a "camp").

[CNYScouter]

Thanks for the answers.

 

This was our first meeting with this new troop and I was very impressed that the PLC came up with this on their own and have been putting this together. What also impressed me is that just about the whole troop is going. The last troop we were with would never have been able to do something like this. This is one of the reasons we switched to this troop.

 

This trip is done at a public state forest. The terrain is hills.

Most of the older scouts and adults have been there multiple times.

They are limiting this to scouts that have done a some camping.

Since this trip was added to the schedule only last week the rules and particpants are still being worked on.

 

I do like the idea of the HQ in case of emergency.

 

I was trying to find a way to do this as a patrol competition. I am not sure how to pull this off with 3 patrols and 4 adults, but it looks like we will have to come up with more adults to do this trip.

[FScouter]

Regarding 2-deep leadership and cell phones: consider a normal campout at one site. Would it be appropriate to hold a campout with one leader on site communicating by cell phone with another leader back home? This is no different.

 

If you were to consider this a patrol outing, then no adult at all would be permitted.

 

If it helps, the 4th adult need not be a registered adult. It could be any mom or dad or any other adult.

[mdutch]

FScouter Wrote: If it helps, the 4th adult need not be a registered adult. It could be any mom or dad or any other adult.

 

I thought that you had to either be registered OR be a parent, not just some random adult (ie. older brother)

[Eagledad]

>>Off hand, this is what I would recommend. The adult leaders should set up a HQ camp. This can be at the starting point of the hike, somewhere in the middle, or wherever you choose.

[Bob White]

You need to check wwith the State Park, they will probably require adults in each campsite not just nearby.

 

[FScouter]

meamemg - you're right. One adult must be registered. The other can be registered, OR an unregistered parent of a participating Scout. One of them must be 21 or older. A random adult does not meet the requirement.

[nldscout]

I think 3 leaders at a central HQ's is enough. It meets the 2 deep requirement. The patrols don't need to be that far apart, have them move in a little closer is all.

[packsaddle]

Four adults. There are good commonsense reasons to have four even if there were no youth protection guidelines. Anything less is risky business. I suspect you understand this intuitively or else you wouldn't have asked.