NO Parents on campouts- A recruiting issue

[t487scouter]

I truly wish I shared your problem anarchist. Our troop is a little over a year old. The parents of my first 5 scouts have not attended one outing. I had to register friends and family so I had my two deep on our outings. I am now up to 15 boys and it looks promising with quite a few parents on our first camp after x-over and two parents who have been to all outings so far this year. I am giving you this info because I am not sure I am qualified to answer your post but a few ideas did come to mind. I think the parents request is reasonable, why? Looking at things from a non-scouting view, would you feel comfortable handing your 12y/o to people you didn't know and sending them into the woods with a bunch of older boys not knowing if they will have a positive or negative effect on your son? I can understand the parents wanting to go. I had one parent that did not let their son go camping with me a few months ago because the parent could not go (1st camp). After the first camp, and the parents see that things are under control (for the most part) I would guess they would feel at ease letting their child go alone. I did mention to my parents before they joined that there were no parents allowed at meetings or campouts but adult leaders and role models were more than welcome. As parents I won't let them help Johnny in any way during the camp. I will also ask them not to reprimand their child. The parents are more than welcome to attend but interaction between them and their boys is limited. Since I have so few parents this is easy for me, I have them help the patrol that their boy is not a member of. They can keep an eye on their child (if that is why they are there) but not interact directly. I would suggest that in your planning, your first few campouts would be at a place that could accommodate the entire troop and their parents, I would imagine that the numbers would fall after a few camps and you would end up having people there that want to help the troop, not just their child. If that fails, require them to get a uniform, aquire training and sign a leader app, that seems to make most run around here!

[BelieveinScouts]

I just happened to start reading this thread and thought I would give a parents perspective. My son is only a Bear Cub Scout, but we're already looking ahead towards Boy Scouts. I do like to Camp and help out. As he becomes a teenager I see these trips as one of the few ways I'll probably get to spend time with him. I also hate to say it, but with some of the horror stories in the news about things that have happened to boys by Scout Leaders on Camp-outs, I'm not certain the day will ever come when I will blindly send my son off on a Camping Trip with a Scout Leader. Especially one he's come to trust and admire. It just makes him more vulnerable to that person. Now, hopefully the leader would be worthy of that trust and admiration. It will have to be a judgement call when we get to that point I suppose. I just keep thinking about the Scout Leader in PA (I think) that had been a Leader for 25 years and had convinced these boys that no one loved them like him, not even their parents. I think the BSA is a fantastic program, but I think checks and balances is a very good thing. I think parents should be watching. I'm sorry if this offends any leaders. I am a Leader for my son's den and we have had parents come on every camp-out. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in.

[fgoodwin]

t487scouter writes:I did mention to my parents before they joined that there were no parents allowed at meetings or campoutsFrom the Guide to Safe Scouting:All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss01.htmlI don't see how you can square the first policy with the second?

[OldGreyEagle]

Believe,

 

the officail BSA policy is that all unit activities are open to all parents and there are no secret societies. One could make the argument that a Class 5 whitewater excursion is not for everyone or that some activties have limits on the participants, but the fear you imply is why the BSA says its open. Various units screw around with BSA policy, but them, they are generally screwed up anyway. Be active, Be aware, and have fun !

[Vicki]

"...but adult leaders and role models were more than welcome."

 

fgoodwin, this is the rest of the sentence you posted as a quote from t487. I did not take it to mean parents were excluded, but rather that they should be prepared to not act like parents. I could be wrong, he'll say if I am, but that's how it sounded to me.

 

BinS, no offense here - ever since I took my oldest to the ER with a broken arm (from a jungle gym) and I realized that the constant barrage of questions directed at him (as he sits there in pain) and the dirty looks directed at me when I answered (because he was in such pain) were because they were trying to find out if I had broken his arm - well, it made me realize that everyone is under scrutiny and we may as well not take offense cuz it wouldn't do us any good anyway.

 

Vicki

[fgoodwin]

Vicki, you're right -- sorry about that.

 

I will add one last comment: according to G2SS, parents can observe any BSA activity -- they don't have to register as a leader or be a role model.

 

Thanx for the correction.

[t487scouter]

Thank you for the defense Vicki, that is exactly what I meant but I probably should have stated it differently. I welcome any parent that wants to attend camp but ask them to act as their sons parents when there. If the boys should be doing something different or they are misbehaving, it is up to the PL/SPL to straighten things out. I have also witnessed parents doing things like carry packs or water bottles for new scouts on hikes. This is a disservice to the scout (they must learn to carry what they brought) and not fair for the other scouts without parents attending.

 

To BelieveinScouts, I hope that you will eventually believe in the scouting program and scouters in addition to scouts. I think I can speak for all SM's, ASM's, and anyone involved in scouting when I say that we are all appalled at someone taking advantage of the boys. As OGE posted, some units do screw around with the policies of the scouts. These policies are devised from many years of trial and error and should be adhered to even if not believed in by the individual. For example, a few years ago I was at a 6 day Cub scout camp. One boy did pretty well through the week but on the last day, when all the other parents showed for the BBQ, his mom wasn't there. He lost it big time. I tried everything to calm him down. Finally I asked if he would like me to sit with him out in the parking lot and wait for his mom. He agreed and calmed down (I figured she was just running late.) Now, I have known this boy for many years, he is a great kid, he trusts me and as his parents trust me. I also know that I would never do anything to hurt him so I would feel comfortable sitting with him alone waiting. But, policy is policy, I interrupted another dad having lunch with his son, to sit with us.

 

You state that you would never leave your son alone at camp. This brings up another thought. There have been many stories of teachers molesting children as well. Do you send your son to school or is he home schooled? We do everything in our power to protect our kids but we can't protect them forever, sometimes we just need to trust.

 

[cliffgolden]

 

From the Guide to Safe Scouting:

 

"All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders."

 

This is true to a point.

 

If a parent arrived at an activity intoxicated, I would certainly ask him to leave. If he/she were abusive toward boys, that parent would not be allowed on our troop activities. There are certainly exceptions to the rule.

 

A parent has the right to spend time with their child, but they don't have the right to spend time with other people's children. When you allow parents on activities, you are also providing them access to other people's children.

 

Units have the responsibility to select adult leaders. Not every parent might be appropriate as a leader. I think parents should generally be welcomed into the troop, and most often they could be invited to be leader, but there may be some exceptions.

 

Jamboree contingents consist of 36 youth and 4 adults. Not every adult who wants to attend a Jamboree troop with his/her son is allowed to go. Sure they can visit the Jamboree, but only on certain days. Philmont Scout Ranch also has limits to the number of adults allowed in a crew; there must be a majority of Scouts involved. Not all parents will qualify for the trail. Those events are conducted under national policies.

 

So it would seem that it is within national guidelines for a troop to restrict the number of adults on activities, since adult participation is restricted on nationally sponsored events and activities.

 

Boy Scout troops are for boys. Adults are there to serve as leaders, not as parents. Adults should be working for the good of all boys, not just their sons. I feel it is entirely appropriate for units to limit the number of adults on any given activity.

 

High adventure is one more aspect where some adults might not qualify for participation. Some parents might not have the physical ability or skills necessary to participate in some advanced activities.

 

If you are overburdened with too many adults, one way to limit adult participation might be to allow only registered trained adult leaders on activities. It would still be open to parents, if they are willing to make the necessary commitment of time and effort to become registered and commplete the appropriate training.

 

Generally speaking, I think we want to be as open as possible to parents, but don't abandon quality control when selecting leaders. That certainly impacts the safety and quality of your program.

 

Basically it comes down to common sense. You do what best serves the boys. Do what works best for your troop.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

 

[Hunt]

"Boy Scout troops are for boys. Adults are there to serve as leaders, not as parents. Adults should be working for the good of all boys, not just their sons. I feel it is entirely appropriate for units to limit the number of adults on any given activity."

 

I don't agree with the "any given activity" part of this. I think it is OK--even necessary--to limit the number of adults on high adventure outings, or on trips with a limited number of slots. I also think it is OK to set relevant limitations on which adults can attend certain events--i.e., fitness requirement for high adventure, registered leader for Jamboree. However, absent such limitations I think it is a violation of the GTSS to exclude parents just because you'd rather not have them around. The parent has the right to observe "all aspects of the Scouting program." That includes meetings and other outings, in my opinion. Clearly, it even includes events to which parents were historically not permitted, such as OA events. You can tell parents why it might be better for them not to attend, but you can't make a rule excluding them.

[cliffgolden]

 

I think the troop should have the final say in who participates in "any given activity".

 

We have a Patrol Leaders Retreat so the boys can plan their program, not all Scouts are allowed to attend. Too many adults might unduly influence the boys. We want the boys' plan, not the parents' plan.

 

I think any restriction of activities should be done for a valid reason. Jamborees, High Adventure, Patrol Leaders Council Retreats, etc.

 

That should be up to the troop to make that decision based on the individual activity in question, and sometimes the adults in question.

 

If you have an alcoholic parent with a history of drug abuse and violence, I think you might want to restrict his participation on any given activity.

 

We want to keep the program as open as possible, even Order of the Arrow ceremonies. But still, I feel the unit has the right to restrict participation on any given activity if they feel they have just cause to do so.

 

Scouting should be a safe haven for boys. Sometimes open doors aren't condusive for creating safe havens. Sometimes there might be valid reasons for keeping the door closed.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

[schleining]

I think your troop has hit it's max capacity for what it can and can not do.

I do not understand why you need 1 Adult per Scout on a Campout, especially when you know space is limited.

 

Our Troop is 1 year old this month. We started with 5 boys and now we have 11. We have 6 2nd year Webelos that will cross over to the Troop in October. So we will be up to 17. Right now I have 3 Assistant Scoutmasters to handle 11 Scouts. More than enough Adult leaders, When we get the new 6 we will Add an Assistant Scoutmaster. We have camped 12 times and had just about as many other outings.

I invite all the parents to go on any activity, event, campout. Most choose not to go and that is fine with me. Unless they know and understand the program, most of the time they are in the way.

I think that a Troop needs to recognize it carrying capacity. When I was a Scout (moons ago) I was in a Troop that had about 75 Scouts in it. We had plenty of Adult leaders, but after awhile it got to big and less fun. It seemed like they (leaders) were running a Scout Factory. Bring them in... get the Eagle... let them go...

Summer Camp.. we would go as a Troop. The other troops hated us becasue we took to long in the Dining hall.

Anyway- maybe a split of the Troop would be a good idea if you all can't handle the capacity. (Just a thought) It would be alot more hands on for your Scouts and you would not have the size/space issues.

 

Jerry

 

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

Let's not create any false dilemmas here. This doesn't come down to a choice between a "no parents rule" and the modern equivalent of an Old West shoot-em-up with more parents than Scouts, and the parents are brandishing weapons in one hand and bottles of whiskey in the other. As I see it, the intent of the BSA policy on parental observation is to underscore BSA's YP guidelines, to "put our money where our mouth is", if you will.

 

I welcome parents who want to join us on outings. If they're staying overnight, I want to make sure they're prepared to do so, properly equipped, and we have them on our tour permits, menus/rosters, and so on, but that's as far as I go with the social engineering. In most cases, they come away from the outing with more confidence in their son's abilities, the organization and effectiveness of the youth leadership, and in BSA's aims/methods. If any make a well-intentioned mistake and get out of their lane, stepping on a Green Bar's toes or something, we'll talk at an opportune time, but not as if it's an emergency...

 

KS

[2Eagle]

Different view here maybe...Parents are encouraged to come on campouts. I am only the Scoutmaster not the head babysitter. We only go places that will take large groups when we take the whole troop. Venture patrols for older boys can help break into smaller groups if necessary. If the parents come the boys will come and, after all, the boys are the target audience. Going to summer camp with 39 of 39 boys and taking 21 Dads/leaders (who are also Dads). All will have, as a minimum, Fast Start and YPT (easy to do online). Many have Safe Swim, Safety Afloat, Climb on Safely, etc. The more the merrier. Doing great. Don't make this Scout stuff too hard.

[schleining]

"Don't make this Scout stuff too hard."

 

AMEN!

This stuff is all fun. I think that sometimes we do get wrapped around the broom handle over minor stuff.

 

Jerry