NO Parents on campouts- A recruiting issue

[fgoodwin]

anarchist:

 

Rather than telling parents up front that they are not welcome on camp-outs (and what parent wouldn't be offended and deeply concerned about such a policy that separates them from their kids, given the child-molestation hysteria currently in the air?), have you considered a different policy?

 

Announce that all families are welcome to join the Troop, but disclose upfront that, because of facility limitations, camping trips will be filled on a first-come first-served basis. And once the facility limit is reached, everyone else stays home.

 

That might be a better approach, because you deny admission to no one, but everyone has an equal shot at attending Troop functions.

 

Justa suggestion . . .

 

Fred Goodwin

Alamo Area Council

[Bob White]

Anarchist and I are discussing this situation off line at the moment so I do not want to muddy the waters by addressing his situation here as well. But I do want to comment on Fred's last post.

 

Fred you mention inviting the "families" on the troop outings. While family participation is a Cub Scout program Method it is not a Boy Scout one. I see that your background is largely in Cubbing so I yunderstand your tendency to think along those lines. But a Troop or patrol activity is rarely an appropriate place for siblings and should not be presented as appropriate.

 

But certainly any parent should feel welcome to come along.

 

[fgoodwin]

BW, I agree that Boy Scout camping is not like Cub Scout camping, with respect to family involvement. But Scouting is an open program at all levels. Nothing happens in secret (OA included) -- if a boy's parent insists on accompanying him on a Boy Scout campout or any other Scouting event, the parent must be allowed to attend.

 

With that in mind, telling parents that they are not welcome on a Troop campout hardly comports with BSA policy. But when a Troop has good reason to limit attendance (as anarchist gave), then by all means do so -- I just think there are better ways of doing it than by violating BSA policy.

 

OTOH, if the Troop insists on telling parents they are not welcome, then they should not be surprised that the parents take their Webelos to a Troop that is more welcoming of their participation.

[fgoodwin]

By the way Bob, if you'll read my comments again, I said nothing about families going on "troop outings".

 

I said he should make families feel welcome to JOIN the Troop -- after all, anarchist did start this thread as a recruiting issue and when a boy joins, you want his family to be involved, right?

 

Because if you don't, you won't have a TC or many ASMs after too long.

[anarchist]

Fred,

thanks for the input but to clarify...no where in my post did I say (and I am confident no one in the troop SAID) families were not welcome...nor that parents were not welcome... but what WAS said at some get-together was 'probably' (remember, I was not part of the recruiting and I am getting info second and third hand... by a well meaning ASM) was that 'on most of the big campouts, parents could not expect to go along'... which currently is an objective and truthful statement of what we have seen this year...

 

For more "background", we have a very heavy outdoor program...which we 'hard sell' to the boys. Many months there are two events and some months three ...we do several high adventure activities for older boys; (caving, 100 mile canoe trips, rock climbing), several 'mid-level things, short canoe trips, fishing camps and district camporees, and for the NSps intro campouts, bike hikes day events, treks to museums and short hikes. Then of course, there is Summercamp and usually one or two crews (each year) go off to one of the national high adventure programs (Forida Sea Base is our current favorite)

 

But we have 4 or 5 Troopwide "just-plain-ol'-good time-everyone-wants-to-go" events that the kids love ( 11 year olds as well as the 17 yr, 11 month and 29day old scouts) ...and year in year out the boys want these camps on the calendar...but now the numbers don't work if we include a large group of parents...without leaving boys behind...

 

I can fill up avaiable campsites with scouts and have no room for adult leaders and drivers if I am not careful...

 

granted these folks did get a 'feeling' that they were not welcomed with open arms...and I see that as an unfortunate but correctable mistake the troop can handle...I am not sure I would have done any better...(but I know it can be done better)...My underlying question however is still; how can we continue (or can we continue?) to offer what the boys want without turning off some parents...do we really have to break up what the scouts feel are 'signature' team/troop building really cool events (into Patrol activities) to avoid hurting feelings or do you think it can it be finessed by careful measured explaination...

 

thanks for all the 'hits' keep them coming

anarchist

[Bob White]

You are right Fred I misread that.

[fgoodwin]

anarchist, you titled this thread:NO Parents on campoutsand you also made the following statement in your initial post:the parents of these boys did not like being told 'by troop leaders' that they would not be able to 'continue to enjoy the scouting experience with their sons'I interpreted those two statements to mean parents were not welcome on Troop campouts. If I misread your meaning, I apologize.

[Eqeq]

anarchist's "... helps our boys to design a working calendar ..." Excellent. That must be a key to sucess. The Troop that distribuites a clear Calendar with Meetings and Events first gets my scout with an active parent. I will plan my family calendar around scout activities if a timely calendar is provided.

 

fgoodwin's "... because of facility limitations, camping trips will be filled on a first-come first-served basis." That seems reasonable. As a parent I would like to see a sign up sheet for each camp out with dates listed. Fourty numbered lines if 40 slots are alloted. At the end could be spaces for extra names if those who sign up can not attend. I would expect to pay a $5 deposit due per person by or at the next monthly meeting to hold my place or the next person in line with $5 gets it. Even for events that do not cost. The $5 can be reimbursed when I show up. If I do not show up I loose it.

 

Everyone camping should be on the job roster. Note: Sitting Around the Fire is not a job on the roster.

 

If the facility holds 100 and 200 want to go have two sign up sheets for two different days.

 

I want a parent camping with my scout especially at first. "No parents allowed" would be part of my considerations for choosing a troop.

 

 

[SemperParatus]

A,

 

Sorry to hear that your troop has such a 'policy'. Having been involved in a couple troops with over 100 scouts and a new one that has grown to 60 in a short time, I know exactly where you are coming from. It really needs to be a balance. We always tried to schedule 3-4 trips a year with unlimited space availability. Where space is at a premium, sign-up limits must be used on a first come-first serve basis. In such cases, we would look to reserve a 4:1 scout/adult ratio (the minimum number to afford transportation). Most people are pretty reasonable about it when they realize the difficulties of booking space. As long as the parents that wanted to camp got to go on 3-4 trips a year with their sons they were pretty much happy. Patrol campouts are always an option, and quite frankly are a lot more fun. Having a hard and fast rule is never a good thing and I can certainly understand why some famililies may choose to go elsewhere.

[Hunt]

I think there is some confusion in this thread, but I'll jump in.

It seems to me that a question for discussion is whether it is OK to say, "On the next outing we have room for 40 scouts and 10 adults--first come first served." Or, do you have to take 25 scouts and 25 adults if they sign up first? In BSA's programs, there are certainly times when the number of adults is limited (i.e., Philmont treks), so I don't see why a troop shouldn't do this if it really has to limit the total number of people who can go. (They could also use a lottery if this happens for a lot of events.)

Of course, you also have to square this with the idea that you can never exclude the parent of a scout--I think, unfortunately, this would be a situation in which you would have to say, "Well, Mr. X, you were not one of the first 10 adults who signed up. If you really don't want Johnny to go without you, we'll miss him." The other alternative is to never do events with limited numbers, and that's not reasonable either.

[OldGreyEagle]

Aha Hunt, you may have stumbled on something, that of being reasonable and perhaps thats the best approach. Don't have a policy of parent's not being able to come to campouts, or only on some sort of rotating basis, but approach each event on its own merits.

 

The troop I serve has been invited to the West Point Camporee this year. Two Eagle scout alums of the Troop are cadets. Per West Points rules only 25 scouts and 10 adults may attend. And as these parameters were being read last night, you can bet I was thinking about my comments that the troop never limits anything. Well, of course we will be limiting the attendance, we have to.

 

MOST people are reasonable, and if the rules of each event are explained, I dont think you will have the stigma of a no parents on campouts troop. Sometimes you have to limit, but I hope those times the reasons are so obvious (like a West Point Camporee) that there is not much room for discussion.

[GopherJudy]

Shouldn't the priority be that as many boys as possible go camping? I thought in Boy Scouts the boys are to be more independent & not have to have their parents at every campout. I think that it's more important for all the boys that can go, go camping with all the leaders that are able to go & then if there's room for any parent's it should be first come, first picked or by a lottery. Let's say they have room for 5 parents, all of the parents who want to go can write their name on a piece of paper, put it into a hat & then have someone, maybe have the SPL pick out 5 pieces of paper & those 5 parents get to go. Then on the next trip do another lottery but the 1st five parents that went aren't allowed to put their names in the hat. Keep a list of the parents that were picked & continue til all of the parents have been picked & then all of the names can go back into the hat. If for some reason a parent can't go at the last minute & another one is able to, make the adjustments on the list of parents who can go. I can't see having 25 Scouts, plus leaders and 25 parents going campout & the parents don't even do anything to help!

 

My son just went on his 1st Boy Scout camping trip over the weekend & I didn't go. They recommended that the parents of the new boys didn't go so they could see how the boys would be without their parents. Sounds like a good idea to me! Of course 1 parent from the NSP went to keep an eye on his son & his nephew, they are a handful but it defeated the purpose. My son said that the father contantly yelled at them. Now this is the 1st time that my son has ever been on a campout without me, I'm his only parent because my husband, their father, died 8 years ago when Mark was 2.5 year old & Lori was 5.5 months old. I was the AWDL & took all the required training plus WLOT & went to a Council Pow Wow, etc. & the fact that I've always loved camping but I knew it was important for Mark to go without me. I'm a little more qualified than that parent, who really only wanted to babysit the 2 boys & that's the only reason he signed up to volunteer, to go on the campout as I would be there to help, assist & guide everyone. Good Luck!

 

Judy

[SWScouter]

I find this whole phenomenon of too many parents wanting to camp interesting. When I was a boy scout way back in the 70's this "problem" didn't exist, at least in my troop.

 

I'm a Webelos den leader and I just signed up my den for a camporee. We'll be camping next to the troop chartered to our CO. I was there when they signed up: 24 people, 11 scouts. The SM laughed when he saw the numbers and said it was a young troop. Wow, more adults than scouts. That really surprised me.

 

A question about the first come first serve approach to outings. Doesn't that pretty much blow the Patrol Method out of the water? I just don't see how FCFS and the Patrol method can mix.

 

SWScouter

[GopherJudy]

SWScouter,

 

When the troop that was signing up, how many of the adults were leaders? I think it's a little ridiculous to have more adults than Scouts! When the boys were Webelos you have to have a parent go camping but when the boy crosses over to Boy Scouts he's "free" from having his parent have to go camping with him, unless the parent is a leader! They have to let the boys grow up & take on more responsibility. If the parents like to camp so much, they could go camping as a family at a campground that's near where they live or further away if they choose. They shouldn't be using the campouts as a mini-vacation!

 

Judy

[Lynda J]

We have two camping trips a year that are "family camping" trips. The remainder are leader only.

This has worked well. OUr SM sits down with the parents when they first come into the troop and explain to them that part of the progression into Boy Scouts from Cub Scouting is teaching the boys to be more self sufficient. That as much as we would like to have them come it is important that the boys learn to camp without them. It has worked well. If we do need a parent to help we rotate the ones that like to go. But they must have taken CPR, First Aid, and YPT training to be able to go. We have 20 boys in the troop and 13 registered adults. Of the 13 5 have taken the training. This is one of the main reasons that we don't want out troop to grow much past 25 boys.