anarchist Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 howdy folks... While the title is a "little over the top" I hope enough read and respond to give me a host of ideas! Situation: Our Troop has just taken in nine new scouts, three boys (each) from three different packs...A good thing! A bad thing?.... One of our committee Members, who was also the Cub Master of one of these packs, was surprised (shocked was more like it) when the other five boys in his younger son's Webelos II den 'elected' to go to a newer troop...closer to their homes and a natural 'graduation' troop for their pack... at the last minute...even though the boys themselves all seemed to want to come to our troop. (note: last three out of three Cub Masters from this pack have become Adult leaders with our troop) Situation: Last year (March 2004), our troop grew from 30 to 65 boys and it opened a host of interesting logistical problems...available camping facilities being one of them...We are a very active troop (two outdoor offerings per month is routine) and successful in the participation department (we usually take 30 to 45 boys on any non High Adventure trip and summercamps are 80%ers) Taking 40 to 50 boys to the beach to camp or to Gettysburg or even summer camp became a real task. For the first time we found ourselves telling folks(not only parents but scouters too) that they would have to hang back or camp elsewhere...That quite simply there was no room. The 'feed-back' my friend recieved from the Webelos II den leader this week was; that while the boys did want to join our troop...the parents of these boys did not like being told 'by troop leaders' that they would not be able to 'continue to enjoy the scouting experience with their sons' ...in our troop, that is, and that they probably could not go on many campouts with the troop... I was not incharge of the recruiting program this year and I know what my feelings are on this.... but I was wondering what other units do...and how you would respond to this as a recuitment issue? Batter Up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 This is not a recruitment problem, this is a leadership or a communication problem. If this is the policy decision of the unit leaders, as the parents say they were told, then it is a bad decision. They will either need to change their decision or accept its effects. If this is not the unit's philosophy then someone is not communicating it to the Webelos very well and they need to be set on the right path. BW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Here is a link to the Troop I serve website http://www.troop362.com/ Note, it says there are approx 70 scouts and 50 adults. It is the largest troop in the District, the second largest troop has approx 50 scouts and 40 adults. I know this because at a recent roundtable there was a discussion about recruiting adults. As the two largest troops we were looked to for hints on how to get more adults because as you get more adults, each job becomes easier causing more adults to want to join because they know they have plenty of support and because they know they wont get "stuck" doing it all. Both units had the same answer Number one, we dont limit adult participation (other than its against BSA policy) limiting parental involvement has to be the definitive description of shooting yourself in the foot in the youth organization dictionary. We dont care if you can only go on one trip a year, we want you and value you. That means men, women, any parent may accompany us on an outing. It has resulted in a few growing pains. A hunters cabin that once housed the troop now is only used for PLC training, a troop members house lot on a private lake that once contained all the troop is not large enough for us anymore. At summercamp, there is only one site that will contain us and one year we used that site and another complete one. However, for the e'spirit de corps our approach brings, for the teamwork and outright fun the adults have on outings and in guiding the troop far and away makes up for any logistical problems our size may present. An active program attracts active kids, active kids generally come from active families with active mothers and fathers, why in the world would you turn anybody active away? Special note, the leaders make sure that the adults have fun and leave the boys alone(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 That is why God invented Patrol outings! When potential Troop parents visit our troop I tell them about the advantages and disadvantages of troop sizes. Some families look for small troops so that the parents can put "their stamp" on things. Others look to big troops so the parents can blend into the woodwork. Many use troop size and as an indicator of quality. We are both blessed and cursed to have a plethora of Boy Scout units in close proximity to us. What most parents don't look at is the facilities of the CO. Does the meeting place put size restrictions on troop size? A unit can always purchase more tents, bigger trailers, etc. We have unitsin our area that do limit their size. Bigger is not always better. But, when limiting size, one should limit number of boys, not allow boys but not their parents. Face it. Does a 16 or 17 year old boy want to go on the same type of camping trip or outing as an 11 year old? Maybe the same location but not do the same activities. Remember, patrols come together to make a troop. Troops don't subdivide into patrols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted March 31, 2005 Author Share Posted March 31, 2005 Keep them coming... but don't miss the point of the problem...(BW) why is it a bad decision? (OGE)it is not that they can't help or be trained registered leaders... the more the merrier...it 'is' that they can not be assured to go on any particular campout... and sorry to say, we can't take every one on every event...many campsites have finite 'body'limits ...and (acco40)... I am happy to say that on most of our troop events many of our older scouts want to come too! Most of our troop events are exciting and fun... Example: Assateague Island National Seashore has 5 (FIVE) group camp sites on the beach 'side'. Each 'site' is limited to 25 (TWENTY FIVE) campers. They start taking reservations on "X" day and by "X" plus ten minutes 'half' of the sites are booked for any given weekend...(Sea Base anyone?) Last Year we had a 'limit' of 50 bodies...(two group sites booked)! So do I take 25 scouts and the 25 parents who wished to tag along? Do I lie and put 75 people on a site designed for 50? Are you really saying that our older boys (or our younger boys) don't want to be together at Assateague? Or don't go? Gettysburg, McMillian Woods group camp- we would need to win their 'lottery' for about half the campsites available on any given weekend to take all the parents who would like to go... Same way with our white-water rafting weekend (and few outfitters could handle 100 folks from the same unit....) Or the Marine Corp Base/lake we visit...or our AP Trail camp weekend.... We should break the boys out (for remember a troop, not patrol event) and do smaller(?) troop activities for the benefit of adults who want to go camping with the troop...interesting?!! like I said keep them coming(This message has been edited by anarchist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Actually, the troop has gone to Assateague a few times. I know those group sites, we make sure we reserve far ahead enough to be sure we have the space we need. Like I said, size has its logistical limitations, but we also have the resources to handle that. Now, I hope this isnt double talk, but we do limit participation on some outings, like a white water rafting trip where you have to be a "swimmer" according to BSA standards. Thats explained up front and adults also have to qualify each year. Adults who want to come and stay in camp and not go on the river tell us its nice to enjoy a campsite sans scouts. If you HAVE to limit participation, I guess you have to, we spent a weekend on the USS Massechusetts in Battle Ship bay. That was limited to the first whatevers who paid up. I can see doing that so I guess I will contradict myself. We do limit some outings, but as a general policy we dont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicki Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Two thoughts based on what I've seen my sons' school do when parents want to go on field trips. Our troop really doesn't have a problem with too many parents showing up so we haven't had to come up with a solution. 1) The parents who show up for service projects are given first shot at camping trips. 2) Have a list of parents who want to go on trips. Start at the top and work your way down with however many can go on a specific trip. If a parents name comes up and he/she can't go, they are at the top of the list for the next trip. If the parent can't go more than (pick a number) times in a row, they go to the bottom of the list. Some combination of 1 and 2. Not too hard to administer once you get it rolling and fair. Vicki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 OGE and I have not missed the point. I think perhaps we see it more clearly. You see this as a recruitment problem. How can you keep this restrictive decision and still get the families to join your unit? You can't. It's a bad idea that is going to turn off the very adults who want to come be a part of scouting. It's a bad policy, but it is your bad policy not the BSA program's. So when it doesn't get you the results you want do not expect the program to have a solution. The BSA's solution is don't have a troop policy like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank10 Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Anarchist, I think I understand what you asking, but I'm not sure why you think you have a problem. Your troop has grown beyound the limits of the facilities you use. As a result some families are looking to other troops. Is your pride hurt? Is it a numbers game? Do you want to be the only troop in town? What is your goal that requires you to want to capture more members than can be served? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Its Me Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 I agree with wingnut. Your troop has reach its functional capacity. You are right on with the priotity for outings: scouts, leaders and then parents. Maybe you are at an equilibrium. Five souts leave, five scouts can then join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutingagain Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Seems to me the parents have found a very good solution to address their concerns. If the policy has been explained to the parents correctly, seems to me you will end up with those scouts whose parents don't wish to be actively involved in the troop. This may make the short term logistics of outings easier, but long term it sounds like a plan for Troop extinction. I'd have to go along with the others and suggest this policy of limited participation be revisited. Challenge the parents with finding ways where all can be accomodated, or run more trips. Glad to hear the troop is so active, so there must be something going on to attract that kind of participation. I'm sorry to say the Troop I serve has not faced this problem. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted March 31, 2005 Author Share Posted March 31, 2005 scoutingagain, and all... program interest is not hard to generate! The boys tell the PLC what they want to try, or to do, and where they want to go! Working with what has generated good times in the past and the new interests, the SM corps sits down with the SPL and the PLC with their observations and helps our boys to design a working calendar... and the Adult Troop Committee 'supports' this effort as best we can...rather than tell them they can't go because "there is no room at the Inn". ...but it sounds like most here, think we are wrong...and should start over? perhaps our campout policy should be....Unless all family members can be worked into the program...it can't be done??? interesting, once again.. keep the thoughts coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Back home when I was SM, parents didn't want to attend camp and get down and dirty. Last summer the troop that OJ is in took about 28 or 30 Scouts to camp which is over 90% of the troop, they also had 16 adults. Many of the adults were there just to keep an eye on their kid. Other than answering calls of nature and eating many didn't leave the troop camp site. It seems that the Good Scout Fairy, takes ten bucks from them, sends them to the Scout Shop to purchase a Scout shirt and there is a magical transformation, just like that they become ASM's. These people are too busy to attend training's and in my view add little to the program. While the turn out for campouts is way down less than 50% (I think because as well as trying to find dates when the Scouts are free, there is now a need to find a date when Father and Son are free.)I have on occasion had to visit the site where they are camping and much the same as Summer, there is a parliament of Dads sitting around a fire doing nothing and adding nothing to the program. There are about 36 Scouts in the troop. Parents provide transportation and they have a trailer for the equipment. For trips that are a long way from home they rent mini buses. Large troops can be a real pain.If you want to try and run troop events. I am still up in the air about the ideal size for a troop. When we got above 80 we seemed to lose something, but when we split the troop that didn't work. Trying to get 100 people to camp was a nightmare, just getting the equipment there was a real headache. The good thing that happened was that we started having the Patrols do more stuff as Patrols. We also had ties with our Venture Unit and had some of the older Scouts do stuff with them on a limited basis. Maybe? If you started looking at doing things as Patrols and not as a troop the parents would be an easier task. You will need a really good Quartermaster staff and open lines of communication. The end result can be very beneficial. You will really be using the Patrol Method. The Parents will have to do stuff, not just sit around the fire!! There will of course be times when the Troop will want to camp as a Troop and there isn't much that can be done about that. Eamonn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 "Unless all family members can be worked into the program...it can't be done??? Who has suggested that ALL family members go on ALL troop outings? That is not what you said your policy was about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 This can be a recruiting issue for those parents that like to camp! It can also be a recruiting tool to get new leaders. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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