Too lax?

[Backpacker]

Barry

I agree with you, we leaders need to let the boys be more responsible for their advancement. We give them leadership skills and responsibilities and yet some feel the need to coddle each one to Eagle, isn't that sending them conflicting messages? IMHO if a boy isn't motivated to achieve Eagle then he does not deserve to get it in spite of the badgering of parents and scouters. I hate seeing the wishy washy Eagle projects and efforts of some boys being pushed through to make a unit or council look good stat wise. Eagle does not have the same status and standards it did years ago. It used to be a source of pride to attain Eagle as well as a lot of hard work. Nowadays many boys feel it is their right to be an Eagle and by doing substandard work in the process. At least in my council this is rapidly becoming the standard rather than the exception. I would love to hear the input from you other scouters as to your experiences in this matter.

[DugNevius]

Backpacker, I'm behind your comments 100%.

 

Every scout needs to have the opportunity to be an Eagle Scout, with the guidance and program to get there. But not every scout is an eagle scout.

 

Like you, Backpacker, I have seen a trend of "wishy washy" eagle projects. In our troop we have made it a habit to push for a much higher amount of man-hours completed then the troops around us, and have been told by council that our Eagle BOR are more difficult then those other troops.

 

But it all matters on what the goal of the troop is. Some troops focus on fun and games and scout skills others stress leadership above all else. There is no focus that is better then others, because there is no troop for everyone, and yet for each person there is a troop.

 

Our belief is to give our scouts the most challenging program we can, with the idea that the scouts that graduate from it will be better for it. This is done by maximizing the amount of responsibility and experience each scout gets and pushing them as far as they can go. Trips like Philmont are very helpful in this, and our vehicle for our goal is High Adventure trips as often as possible and backpacking weekends 7-8 times a year. As someone said in my other post about our Philmont training, "It's like basic training for the military." In answer to a question, why dont we have 13-14 year old eagles, with the amount of training each scout goes through in preparation for places like the Maine AT or Philmont his advancement slows but his leadership and experience grows. Also, our leadership selection is different then most troops, from what I have learned interacting with scoutmasters across the globe on web forums such as this, and really pushes scouts to step up with added responsibilities. Lastly, we are not of the mind that a 14 year old IS quite ready for eagle. He simply lacks the experience. For us.

 

Our system is not for everyone and thats fine, especially in our area that provides 4 troops in a small area, there is a troop that provides other needs, program and goals.

 

[dsteele]

Dug:

 

You said, "Lastly, we are not of the mind that a 14 year old IS quite ready for eagle. He simply lacks the experience. For us."

 

First of all, who is "we?"

 

Secondly, the age is not something you're allowed to factor in the equation. The candidate has met the requirements or he has not.

 

It appears to me that you're looking for a battle over your troop's ways. I don't have the proximity or the time to engage in a sought battle. I just ask the questions to ask the questions.

 

Unc.

 

[DugNevius]

since i joined boyscouts in 1989 none of our eagles were in 10th grade or lower. that was 16 eagles. None were told at age 14 they werent capable of being eagle, but our program is so busy and challanging it just doesnt happen.

[Eagledad]

>>Nowadays many boys feel it is their right to be an Eagle and by doing substandard work in the process.

[Backpacker]

Barry,

 

All I can say to your last post is AMEN!!

 

It would be nice if we could find a way to upgrade Eagle standards once again. In my troop the boys might initially complain of what I expect of an Eagle project but when they finish they always tell me how proud they are with what they accomplished. I feel thats one of the reasons my troop is so successful and growing, both the boys and their parents know up front what is expected, they just can't slide by, but even if they don't make Eagle they are proud of all they do accomplish.I remember one boy who took just over two years to get to first class, and when he was finally awarded that badge it was

like he had gotten his eagle he was so proud. So you are right we scouters can either provide a quality program or a badge factory. Its not the speed a boy gets his eagle that is important but the determination and leadership he shows in earning it.

[EagleInKY]

Every scout I worked with that expected a reward for substandard work had a parent behind him pushing him to that expectation.

 

Great comment Barry. I've found the same. When a scout recently was not elected to PL, I had a parent complain that it wasn't fair that his son (the oldest in the patrol), wasn't elected. Simply put, the boys don't see him as a leader. A week later, the parents complained that he wasn't selected for a troop position. But, truth be told, the boy was approached by the SPL, who asked if he wanted any troop position. The boy said "no". The parents wanted me to go back and rearrange things, overriding the SPL. I refused, and now they are not too happy with me. It's a great example of a parent wanting priveleges for their son, when - frankly - he doesn't deserve them.

[EagleInKY]

Barry - One other note, follow up to your earlier post regarding the FC/FY program. I've been criticized by a few parents for over-emphasizing the program. I really don't think I do. Of course, the parents who critized me were of the few boys who didn't complete it in a year. I've always said that it was a goal, not a requirement. Some guys will do it, some will not. It doesn't impact things that much in the big picture.

 

What we do is include the primary scout skills in the annual calendar. For example, we're doing Physical Fitness/Sports in May. It's a great time for new scouts to do their Tenderfoot requirement. Older scouts may want to start their 90 day program for Personal Fitness, or play some sports for Sports MB. In August, we're doing Map & Compass / GPS. We're doing it to prep for a backpacking trek in the Gorge in September. But, it's also a great time for scouts to complete the 2nd Class requirements for this topic.

 

So, if a scout is active (participates in most meetings and activities), does his share of the work, and completes the requirements, he should have no problem completing FC in the FY. However, if he misses a lot, doesn't do the individual work, or doesn't follow-through, he'll be 2 years getting to it.

 

So, is this a "First Class Mill"...? I don't think so. But we do provide a program that a boy can easily obtain the goal if he sets his mind to it.

[Eagledad]

>>So, is this a "First Class Mill"...?

[EagleInKY]

Do you ever say no to a scout?

 

I certainly try not to. I've had a scout ask to work on something, let's say Find Your Way w/out a compass. I may have told him that we were going to work on that at a campout in a few weeks, and if he could wait until then. Usually he could.

 

We also try to include multiple opportunities to fulfill requirements. We don't go on just one hike a year, but 2 or 3. We don't work on map & compass during August, but we usually refresh the skills before Klondike as well. As for swimming, we take two troop meetings and go to the Y (once in the winter, and once in the spring shortly after crossover), we have a pool party with the pack, there is summer camp, and we often get to swim on at least one campout during the year. So there are usually many options for those requirements. But, if a boy wanted to have a lifeguard at the Y signoff for his rescure requirement, I'd be open to that.

 

Great thread, lots of good comments.

[acco40]

With patrol outings and initiative, 1st Class can EASILY be obtained in a few months. Both of my sons earned 1st Class before having nine months in the program. They also attended every troop meeting, went on every troop and patrol outing and all without the slightest "push" on my part. Now, their mother on the other hand ...

 

Too many get in the trap that the troop should start checking off requirements for the boys. Last night we had a teacher (approvedby me, the SM) come to the meeting and talk about their Constitutional rights and obligations as a U.S. citizen. Adiscussion ensued. Not one Scout came to me after the meeting to get that requirement (1st Class req. 5) signed off because I'm sure 99% were not aware of the requirement. That shows a lack of initiative on their part and that requirement is currently not completed IMO. Kids today get way too much spoon fed to them.

[Eagledad]

>>That shows a lack of initiative on their part and that requirement is currently not completed IMO. Kids today get way too much spoon fed to them.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Have a 12 month boy planned and led program using a balance of the 8 methods with adult support.

 

The Scout program, unlike sports programs, is year round. Tell them, "The door will be open on time and the fun program you helped plan will be happening".

 

It is their choice. All of the other stuff will take care of itself.

 

FB