Too lax?

[t487scouter]

I have seen many troops that require X-amount of attendance to meetings and camps. I also know that BSA pushes 1st class by the 1st year, but is this right? In MHO, I look at it as boys we are trying to turn in to outstanding, well rounded, young men. Scouting teaches them more than any other program but there are lessons to learn and fun to be had with sports and other activities also. I would like them to attend every meeting and camp but understand when they have other commitments as well. Same with advancement. I offer all they need to advance but I don't push it. Some meetings are designed around advancement (knots, etc.) but it is not something I push. I figure if the boys are having a good time and they stay somewhat involved they are learning the whole time. I would rather the boys be great young men when they turn 18 and don't care if they have earned Eagle or not. Is my thinking off? Am I cheating the boys?

[dan]

What is you retention rate?

 

If they are not working on advancements at meetings, what are they doing?

 

Do a search on attendance and you can find a few thread just like the patrol size thread.

[Eamonn]

Scouting is a a game with a purpose.

Both the game and the purpose have to work hand in hand.

If the PLC along with the adults plan to make each and every meeting the best show in town.

If you can get the dull and boring stuff over in some sort of enjoyable, fun way.

If the big picture (The Annual Plan) promises fun and adventure.

If you are using all the methods of Scouting, and are not to ridged about them. Yes there is a time for every purpose under heaven!!

If you as an adult Leader can ensure that you talk with each and every Scout and call him by name and catch him doing something right and give him a pat on the back or simply say "Well done".

If you are the SM and you can not do anything but present a well thought out and from the heart Scoutmasters minute.

You will have no need of requirements, the Lads will want to come, the promise of fun and adventure will make them want to advance.

If you work with your PLC and Train them, Trust them and Let Them Lead. They will be back every week.

It is not easy.It does work.

Use the resources that the BSA has out there.

Eamonn.

[scoutldr]

The Advancement plan was changed via the "First Class, First Year" emphasis allegedly because a study showed that most drop-outs occurred before a Scout achieved First Class rank. Back in my day, you had to earn Tenderfoot before you could start working on any Second Class requirements. My experience is that Scouts do not make FC any faster than they did in my day. Theoretically, a Webelos can bridge over in February and be First Class by the end of July if they attend Summer Camp. I have not heard how the FCFY emphasis has affected retention rates. It has been my observation that most drop outs occur when a Scout turns 16 and now has competing priorities of cars, girls, sports and jobs.

[dsteele]

No. You're not off in your thinking.

 

It's up to the troop/pack to offer the boys opportunities to advance, but it's up to the boy to take advantage of the opportunity.

 

It's okay for the troop leadership (the youth who planned a camp out) to say, "Today we're going to take a nature hike. If you'd like some help identifying the plants you need for your badge, we're happy to help." It's then up to the Scout to decide he wants to complete the requirement. If the other boys decide to just go for a walk in the woods and don't identify the plants . . . they've made their choice.

 

Unc.

[Eamonn]

Hey Unc

They could go looking for Chives!!

Would that be ... Wait for it "Chive Walking"?

Eamonn.

[anarchist]

t487scouter,

Troop attendance 'requirements' are for the most part units ways of asking for committment from the boys. Many in the forum frown on attendance regs and it is not BSA policy...Some units go a little overboard in the % department, most try to find a middle ground (say, half of the monthly meeting and half of the outdoor activities)and almost no units take the 'sports team' approach and require 100% attendance.

 

Many do feel that for unit and patrol cohesion 'regular' attendance is an important part of scouting spirit. Our Troop prides itself on retaining a good number of High school aged students and student athletes by accommodating our meeting schedule and annual activities calendar to the High School events calendar. We encourage the athletes to come to meetings after practice...even if late, and in sweat suits.

Our meeting night was changed to Monday night, years ago, to accommodate most of the after-school clubs and sports (in our area Monday seems to be a 'low drag' day for after-school stuff.

 

First Class First Year should be looked at as a goal not a requirement...BSA says their research shows that retention is better after a boy earns his 1st Class...so they think if you make everyone a first class quick everyone will stay...(anyone see problems with the theory??) While, I personally feel their research and theory is bogus or at least simple minded...I do see value in steady advancement progress...

 

I used to be one of the... "heck, as long as a boy is having fun why care if he just wants to go camping with us and doesn't want to do the 'book work'", kind of guys. However, over the last seven years I have seen a good number of boys never advance past second class. Boys who loved the games and camping but when they hit 14,15,16 yrs dropped out. Being a 'camper' myself and a committee member rather than an ASM, I usually have a good 'pressure-less' relationship with the drop-outs.

Some what hauntingly, most boys will somewhere in my 'exit discussions' with them, let it out that all their friends are Star or Life and they feel _ _ _ _ _ {fill in the blank}.

 

As a committee guy rather than program guy, I always try to speak with the parents and the boys about the decission to drop so I can tell our committee if a problem exists. Sort of like a rank BoR.

 

I do not think my 'research' is any more valid than BSA but I do think that somewhere in the middle there is an answer. We need to 'ride herd' a little better and assist in keeping more boys on the road to advancement rather than leaving them behind...in the name of letting them have fun...I will not loose a bit of sleep if a boy "ages out" with out being Eagle...the fact that he stayed with us is more than enough for me...but loosing a boy who seemed to be having fun because he felt bad about not keeping up (being able to?),darn near kills me.

 

HAVE your boys set goals, ASK THEM, do you want to become first class?" they will all say yes!...Put up advancement charts, encourage (even badger a bit) towards earning rank and make sure someone (not you hopefully)is regularly looking at where each boy is (or is not) in his advancement trail. Remember if we do loose them, your hope of the boys becoming well rounded great young men is no longer even a little bit, in your hands...if we can figure out how to hold on to them we can continue to mentor.

 

Finally, this does not mean your weekly meetings are all or even mostly advancement sign off classes. They should be preparatory (planning training) for your up coming outdoor activities. If you can work some scout skills classes in great! But not so many classes that you feel you are running an "Eagle or merit badge mill".

good scouting(This message has been edited by anarchist)

[OneHour]

One problem that I see in our troop as a direct result of not enforcing any attendance rule is the lack of patrol spirit/identity. Times after times, we have to combine patrols together to have enough boys in one patrol. We used to have two patrols (Eagles and Dragons). They could not hold enough boys at campouts that they merged themselves and called themselves the Dreagles. Most of the time, the conflicts lie in band contest, orchestra performance, football game, baseball, soccer, etc.

 

To me this question blends itself into the hotly debated question, "what is the definition of 'active'?" The sages of this forum have differences in opinion in this.

 

My take is that we provide the program. It is up to the boys to take advantage of it. We will encourage them (coaching, SM Conference, etc.). If they take advantage of it, great. If they don't and still have a good time, great! We have four boys who started with a group of twenty five. After 2.5 years, they are still 2nd class while their peers are either Stars or Lifes, but they are having fun (from time to time, namely after football/baseball season). That's ok, too!

 

You're only cheating the boys if you do everything for them. On the flip side of the coin, you are not serving them if you: 1) not trained, 2) not helping the boys accomplish the purpose of scouting, 3) if you are in it strickly to run the show. 4) not having fun.

 

1Hour

 

Hey Eamonn,

 

It's just your chive talkin'

you're cooking with spice, yeah

Chive talkin'

This spice is real nice

Chive talkin'

so misunderstood, yeah

Chive talkin'

It's really so good

Oh, my scouts

You'll never know

Just what it means to me

Oh, my scout

You put too much

You're gonna kill away

my taste bud

With all that chive talkin'

You're cooking with spice, yeah

Good onion'

Still gets in my eyes

Nobody

believes what you cook

It's just your chive talkin'

That gets in my plate!(This message has been edited by OneHour)

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

>>HAVE your boys set goals,

[FScouter]

"... lack of patrol spirit/identity. Times after times, we have to combine patrols together ..."

 

What purpose is served by combining? What can a patrol of 8 get done on a campout that a patrol of 3 cannot?

 

A patrol has it's own spirit and identity. 3 or even 2 boys on a campout can still function as a patrol. Combining patrols kills that identity.

 

 

[t487scouter]

Dan, my retention rate is not a good indicator because the troop has only been active for a little over a year. I have all the boys I started with and just gained 10 more. The last month of meetings are as follows:

4-OA nomination/organized patrol box

3-knots

2-Visited a local sporting goods store (they lock the boys inside after closing, gave a snow clinic, then the boys get to run play with equipment, try on backpacks, etc)

1-wrapped fishing poles.

 

To everyone that wrote, thanks! All of your advice really helps me out.

 

To Fscouter, please pardon me for my ignorance and I understand what you are saying about identity but if for instance there are 2 scouts in one patrol and 8 in the others would it not be better for the boys to absorb into the other patrol(s)? This would especially make sense (to me anyway) if the boys weren't great friends. It would seem to me that they would have a better time with the rest of the boys rather than just be by themselves. I am afraid that this is going to eventually happen to me as more boys are put into Senior patrol positions. If I don't get any recruits in the same age bracket, at what point do I allow the patrol size diminish to before putting them into another patrol? If there are two or 3 boys in a patrol and two don't show to a meeting because of flu or sports is he to be by himself while the other boys do their patrol activities?

[KoreaScouter]

For patrol realignments, I'd let the lads determine that. I've seen it done twice in units I've been with, and it went more smoothly the second time, when the boys actually did that "list six boys you'd like to be in a patrol with" tool that's floating around out there. In my opinion, much better matches that way.

 

Regarding advancement and whether we should care if they earn Eagle or not, I think we should, of course. Not to populate a Troop "wall of fame" or anything, but because if we're doing this right as adults, then the organizational skills, ability to set goals, attention to detail, and leadership, among other things, will result in more of our Scouts reaching Eagle. In other words, use all 8 methods consistently, and you won't have to care if they earn Eagle; it'll happen anyway, for those boys who are inclined to do so.

 

I guess I don't really understand t487scouter's basic premise/question. If we do what we're trained to do, the Troop's monthly program is designed around a program feature; the meetings reinforce it, and every TMP has advancement opportunities inherent in it. But, I think there's more than a grain of truth in the notion that he shouldn't have to "push it" -- that is, if the PLC is doing their jobs consistently.

 

Also, I don't see this as a false dilemma or an "either/or"...the boys will earn Eagle, OR they'll be great young men. I think we can have it both ways, right?

 

That said, I'm not evangelical about this, either. I'm there to help a lad every step of the way, and I make sure the opportunities are there. But, he has to meet me at least halfway. I make sure he has leadership opportunities; he needs to put in the effort. Ditto with service projects, MBs, participation, etc. We've all had the Scouts who hit Star or Life, then are unable or unwilling to make the commitment necessary to continue to Eagle. We can't pour the commitment into them; that motivation ultimately has to be internal, not external. It isn't easy, and it shouldn't be, with the significance we attach to the Eagle rank.

 

KS

[DugNevius]

im ready for the fireworks...

 

Our troop does not push the 1st class by the first year. In fact, or scouts dont get 1st class in the first year. At least 2 years.

 

Also, we never have an eagle at 14. Its not done because it cant be done and shouldnt be done. As far as sports go, in the 17 years ive been involved in scouting, from crossing over as a weablo till now, every singe eagle scout we have had has been on at least one, and in some cases 3 vasity high school sports- wrestling, hockey, soccor, swimming and lacross were some.

 

Haha, ok, bring it on! Im ready.

[SemperParatus]

Dug,

 

I hate to say it. But, I was expecting a little more controversy than that from your inticing introduction. That one was just a little fizzle...no ooooohhhhhs....aaaaaahhhhhs

 

So your troop takes its time for advancement. That is very commendable.

[Eagledad]

>> Haha, ok, bring it on! Im ready.