Card Games and Scouting (Part II)

[eisely]

I too enjoy playing cards, but I do not enjoy playing for money or anything valuable. The last time I played for money was when my then boss insisted on a long plane trip. We played gin rummy for hours and I took him for about $37.00 at a penny a point. He was a terrible gin player. But I digress...

 

Card games can teach valuable skills of concentration and knowledge of probabilities. Further, there are dead times during many outings, and having a deck of cards along can help fill the time in a harmless manner, where everybody is in view and you know what everybody is doing.

 

There are some religious denominations that object to card games. That is fine, but I would not let that interfere with the enjoyment of the group. Any youth or adult who does not want to play for any reason does not have to join in.

[SemperParatus]

Zman,

When we allow one person to dictate what can and cannot be done during downtime on a camping trip, we are doomed (especially when that person is a parent who is sitting comfortably in his home enjoying the peace and quiet while lil' Johnny is away for the weekend). The scout that is 'not allowed' to play by his parents will surely find something else or someone else to help him occupy his time. Usually, the card playing crowd is small - most boys would much rather run around playing capture the flag with Fscouter.

[Lynda J]

This has come up before of other sites.

I have a problem with gambling and scouts.

In all States gambling under the age of 21 in illegal. If a leader is allowing boy to gamble which other laws is that leader encouraging the boys to break. And it doesn't matter if they are only gambling with chips or toothpicks. It is still gambling. Very different from playing a game of hearts or such.

If you are planning a good quality scout program why is there space for gambling in it.

 

 

[SemperParatus]

Criminal gambling statutes are based on the concept of a 'bet', which state laws generally define as "an agreement to win or lose something of value solely or partially by chance".

 

For example, here is the gambling statute in Texas.

 

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Texas/

 

Playing with chips, where such chips have no value other than a pretend value for keeping score and are boxed up at the end of the day and taken home by the owner, is not in violation of any criminal gambling statute. A person under the age of 21 participating in such an activity would not be breaking the law. And an adult that knowingly allows such activity to take place is not committing any crime either.

 

Now, toothpicks, potato chips, M&Ms, etc. are a different story. Gambling laws do not generally have de minimis exceptions (hence a minor cannot drop a nickel in a Vegas slot machine) and consequently, a law may in fact be broken (depending on the state).

 

The argument over chip-playing poker is not one of legality, but rather of morality.

 

 

 

[Lynda J]

My thing is If you have a good Scouting program plan why would you have time for card games. Our troop meeting is 1.5 hours. We push it getting things done in that amount of time. No time for card games. When we are camping there are things to do related to camping. So if someone is having 2 hours to play poker who is planning the program?

There are simply more productive and creative things that the boys can be doing other than a total waste of time gambling.

[Lynda J]

Anarchist. One you forgot.

Obedient; A Scout is Obiedient. A scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair he tries to hve them changed in an orderly manner, rather than disobeying the.

 

 

BSA policy is that gambling of any type is not allowed.

So which other Scout Law would you like to teach the boys to break?

[NJCubScouter]

Lynda,

 

I agree that you shouldn't have card-playing at a troop meeting -- well, except a couple of times a year, just to mix things up, my son's troop has game night. The boys can bring chess, board games, and I guess they could bring a deck of cards although I am not sure whether they actually do.

 

However, after dinner at a camping trip, when the boys are tired and day is winding down, what is wrong with a game of cards? As for chips, if not backed up by money or other things of value, it is not gambling, it is just keeping score. As a personal matter I'd probably find it a bit disconcerting to see boys playing poker with chips at a Scouting function, and I don't think I have seen it.

[Mike F]

I've written about this in other threads, but here goes again.

 

To my amazement last summer at Philmont, on our first evening on the trail, after all the chores were done, the skinniest kid on our crew whips out a big bag of poker chips and a game of Texas Hold 'Em broke out.

My first impulse was to close them down and send the chips out with our Ranger, but I decided to watch closely to see how it was handled. And I was glad I did - they had a blast.

Crew Leader made sure the games didn't get in the way of other activities. Games sure made the time hunkered down under rain fly go quicker. Games after evening chow/cleanup became a ritual - gathering members of other crews who came over for the nightly tournaments. Our campsite became a gathering place - especially at trail camps without evening programs. The guys were having fun and making new friends while the advisors wandered off in search of an Advisors Coffee.

No money changed hands - chips used to keep score.

 

Without a word, the games have never made a re-appearance on monthly campouts since Philmont.

 

Now, mind you, this is not how I would have chosen to spend my precious few free hours out in God's Country - the Philmont outback - where most of them will never again tread. They didn't have exactly the kind of experience I had imagined, but we never skipped any program - including trail Bible study - and there was also plenty of time for Frisbee games, etc.

 

This was an older crew - all 16 or 17. I might have felt differently if they were younger. And I don't think I'd ever condone it as an activity on a regular troop campout. One of the beauties of Philmont (to me) is hitting the trail early so you can (usually) beat the afternoon rains and have some free time at your next camp. Weekend troop campouts are just too busy - there's almost always something else that they ought to be doing. And younger scouts don't have the maturity to know when something is appropriate or not.

 

In short - poker - no for monthly troop campouts. Maybe yes for activities with just the older guys.

 

-mike

[SemperParatus]

Of course the BSA would never be so clear as to define what constitutes gambling and so we must look to the general accepted definition (e.g., provided by law) or common understanding. Gambling essentially involves three components -assumption of risk of loss, determined by chance, for which a benefit (value) may accrue. In playing poker with chips, there is no risk of incurring a loss or possibility for benefit and therefore, gambling does not exist. Consequently, it would not be in violation of any law and, as a result, would not be an issue of being 'disobedient' to laws (unless of course, the troop decided to ban the activity and a scout played anyway).

 

It can be viewed by some as harmless as 'bet I can beat you up that hill', or by others as just as dangerous as actual gambling since it 'simulates' a traditional gaming activity. I would venture to say that most units would not look favorably on scouts simulating activities prohited by the BSA. For example, pretending to hunt animals using sticks as simulated rifles may be deemed harassment of wildlife, pretending to smoke with candy cigarettes could be considered modeling a generally accepted negative behavior, etc. However, making more rules for the kids to break/follow is not the answer. Boys need to have room to breathe. When a 'simulated' negative behavior is modeled it should be used as a teaching opportunity by unit leadership with the goal of helping the scout(s) understand the difference between the real thing and the simulation, and the potential consequences of moving from the 'make-believe' to the 'real'.

[Lynda J]

I am not against card games. I am against gambling. The last time we camped and it rained so hard we couldn't do our hike we did skills.

I guess maybe we plan differently. But I have been with the troop almost two years. And lots of camping trips and I don't remember ever having any of our boys break out the cards for poker.

UNO maybe. They also bring chess sets on camping trips. But normally by the time clean up is over they are as ready for bed as the adults, sometimes more.

[hacimsaalk12]

well, i see nothing wrong with playing small games of poker, as long as that is not the only things the scouts do. in our troop, everything has to be done, and we are only allowed playing for 2 hrs-max. if there are any arguments over it, it goes away.

 

i am going to try to stay away from this one for the most part, b/c i almost got booted out of meritbadge.com.b/c of a heated diccussion like this.

[ChasayyTheCheeser]

In my scout troop this started by some kids playing one day and instead of using chips a kid painstakingly added and subtracted every bet made. The SM was careful to tell the kids not to say we're betting money and instead the boys used PP (Poker points). It was played during downtime on a cold cabin trip when it was raining heavily outside. Playing card games has become almost ritual like for our troop and multiple people bring decks of cards.

Edited November 28, 2018 by ChasayyTheCheeser
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