Showing Scout Spirit

[Trevorum]

This is spun from a post by Eamonn on wearing uniforms to BoRs.

 

I agree with Eamonn that wearing the uniform to a Board of Review is not a requirement and should not be a reason to fail the scout. In fact, I very strongly feel that failing the scout means that the troop has failed the boy and it should never come to that. If you haven't already please review Eammons' thoughts (and those of other folks) on that issue.

 

Anyway, it got me to thinking how we would "handle" a scout who refused to wear the uniform. If is wasn't a religious issue, I would certainly want to discuss it at his next SM conference, under the "Scout Spirit" requirement. Which got me to thinking that it is that particular requirement which perhaps has the most "wiggle room" of any of them, for any rank. It is a completely subjective requirement, unlike say, either getting the bowline right, or not. It is completely up to the SM as to whether this young candidate is a good scout, or not.

 

Which got me to wondering, how do you other SMs handle this requirement? Do you have criteria (written or not) or go with gut instinct. This is always the central point of my SM conferences for Star, Life and Eagle. We briefly review the candidates completion of all the other requirements, but them have a fairly intense discussion of the Scout Oath and Scout Law, what they mean and how to live one's life that way.

 

What do you other SMs do?

[SemperParatus]

For me, the sign-off is purely subjective.

 

The requirement as stated is "Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life." This is not something that I can necessarily determine with much accuracy since it is only the scout that experiences his everyday life and how he lives it. I can only make slight inferences as to whether he is demonstrating scout spirit from my observations of him (which is limited), feedback from others (even more limited), and questioning him about his life and the application of the ideals of the Oath and Law (the most important aspect of the sign-off).

 

I do not interpret the requirement that the scout must always live out the Scout Oath and Law at all times, that would be an impossible feat. However, the scout should be able to identify and distinguish times in his recent past (since last rank advancement) when he both demonstrated and did not demonstrate the scouting ideals. A scout that has done something really 'bad' since his last rank advancement, would get a sign-off from me if he can express how such action was not consistent with points of the scout law or promise, and that he has learned a valuable lesson in the process.

 

Before conducting a scoutmaster conference, I typically solicit feedback from all the ASMs, in particular the ones that appear to work closest with the scout (leader mentor, new scout group, patrol advisor, etc.).

 

I would not say its an automatic sign-off from me, but I don't think there has ever been a time when the scout could not demonstrate or express how he has applied different aspects of the law and promise in his life to my satisfaction.

 

[EagleInKY]

One of my favorite topics. Yes, it's very subjective. It's also one of the great motivators that a SM has. About a year ago I had a problem with a particular scout. It wasn't a one-time deal, it was a progressively worse situation. I started a thread that had lots of good thoughts in it.

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=46779

 

Also, I see it as a bar that raises throughout their scouting career. I expect more from a Star, Life, Eagle candidate than I do at Tenderfoot or 2nd Class. I may "let a boy by" with some immature behavior when he's eleven and new to boy leadership. But I expect him to grow out of it by the time he has matured some in scouting and understand the patrol system.

 

I also agree - in fact I believe I brought it up in the post you spun from - that if a boy absolutely refuses to wear the uniform, especially for the BOR (and it's not for economical or religious reasons), then that boy is not showing scout spirit, and I wouldn't even let him get to the BOR until he began to show a little.

[KoreaScouter]

I'm with EagleinKy. I have Scout Spirit discussions with my Scouts on a regular basis, not just at SM conferences. Everything they do or don't do can have Scout Spirit implications, if a SM communicates regularly and clearly with the Scouts, and is on his game...

 

KS

[fling1]

A couple of thoughts, in different directions...

We usually cover this requirement as part of the SM conference, but we occassionally catch a scout in a very obvious demonstration of scout spirit and ask for his book right on the spot so we can sign it off. Immediate feedback has its benefits, and we can cover the discussion again at SM conference time anyway.

I usually start by asking the scout what he thinks the requirement means... I usually get an answer along the lines of "be nice" or "do good turns" or if I am lucky, "make a positive contribution."

Like EagleInKy, I have been making the point with my scouts that my expectations grow as they move up the ranks. Remembering some simple good deeds is a good start for Tenderfoot, but a Star scout should be able to provide several explicit examples. I have found that they want to talk in broad generalities rather than specifics, but I am trying to them to do more specific reflection.

The other thing I have been doing with this topic is casting a different light on it: Scout spirit is not just about doing nice things for others. It is about loyalty and bravery and obedience and cheerfulness, too. I tell them that the big-time explorers and mountaineers have a similar concept called "expedition behavior." Briefly described, it is the willingness and ability to always work for the benefit of the team, even in the face of adversity. Under extreme conditions, the natural tendency is to become more selfish and take care of only our own acutely perceived needs. But a good expedition team will always continue to look out for and take care of each other. Some experts believe that when expeditions fail, it is most often because of a breakdown in expedition behavior. Not weather or equipment failure. It is important stuff. We don't scale Everest or K2, but we do camp as teams in heat, cold, rain, and snow. We get tired and sore and hot and cold and hungry and have the same tendencies to withdraw and get cranky and impatient and selfish.

After putting this spin on it, I ask them what the hardest outing has been for them. Were you able to do your part for your patrol? Did you continue to contribute to the team even when you were suffering? I think this is a very positive and concrete way to talk about scout spirit and gives an opportunity to cover examples that we may have even been able to observe first-hand in the context of our outings.

[Eagle Foot]

I just turned down a scout for Eagle because his scout sprit was not...

...not helpful to others

...not willing to wear the uniform properly or as requested.

...not willing to set the example of good behavior when around other scouts.

 

The list goes on, it's not that he's really a bad guy, he just doesen't want to do things the way that present as good scouting image. If he he can slide he will. These things need to be cought in the scoutmaster's conference, before the scout goes to the board of review. I also get feed back from the other ASM's as to what they think, how has this scout done. For Eagle the process is stronger. We can't expect these scout's to be perfect, but if they are doing the best they can...that's all I ask!!!!

 

Sometimes I give several SM conferences because the first one may make the scout freeze...

 

If he is fine in the sm conference then he should be fine in the BOR.

 

As sm we have to be fair, but also we have to do what is right and not let bad behavior, or lack of respect get past the sm conference. Somethimes it happens and that is why the BOR is also there. If conflict happens reguarly between the BOR and scout then both process of the SM conference and BOR need to be viewed...as to corectness and what they are reviewing.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The question is about the Uniform and BOR's.

 

Let me phrase it another way, is the Scout uniform important?

 

Answer:

 

If a young man has plan to obtain the Uniform and can objectify it with such things as a budget plan, bank account, working a job, etc., then he has shown me Scout Spirit. That is the kind of Scout Spirit that is not as easily seen as the Uniform. I still expect to see progress toward the goal of purchasing the Uniform in the future.

 

If a young man doesn't have a plan or data to support it, then I am left to my own thoughts on the subject, which is, he must not have Scout Spirit. I think that thought because that is what a non Scout would think, "He must not be a Scout".

 

The next question should be asked if Scout Spirit and the Uniform are the same. The answer is NO they are not the same. Instead, they are interrelated. HOW?

 

Well there are 8 methods that lead to the 3 Aims to being a Scout. One of the 8 Methods is the Uniform. That is the direction that I look for Scouts to be traveling when I question them about being a Scout at a BOR.

 

FB

 

[Eamonn]

First I do want to try and clear my name!!

I am not the sort of guy who lets things slide by. I am 100% for requirements being met in full.

I really want the youth who go through our programs to come out being able to make ethical choices and having made progress in meeting the aims of Scouting.

I think that the methods of Scouting, when used correctly (The methods are sound, but at times need too be used at varying levels or degrees. - I'm not making this very clear. What I'm trying to say that there are different courses for different horses. A new troop, might need to ease up a little on the Patrol Method. A Troop of go getters might want to do more fun stuff and ease up on advancement. In fact this might be true of individual Scouts.)

I enjoy the Scoutcraft side of Scouting, the hiking, camping, knotting and all that good stuff.

Most of us would agree that if you were looking to find what Scout Spirit is? You would go back to the basics, which are the Scout Oath, Law,Motto and Scout slogan.

The big stumbling block is in the Scout Law.

While we might think that a Lad is not living up to the high ideals of Scouting and we might think that he is guilty of all sorts of things. The "I will do my best" is very hard to determine. A Lad with ADD or some other behaviour problem might really be doing his best, but never reach the standard that we might like or expect.

I have no idea why, but some Lads just seem to have a knack of getting into trouble, they really try not too, it just seems to happen. Some do seem to outgrow this - It just seems to take an awful long time.

So what is the standard for Scout Spirit? And who sets it? I think we might look at Scout Spirit in the same way as we look at learning to read. Just as we have to work with each student individually when he starts to learn to read, we need to work with each Scout individually with Scout Spirit. Each Scout will make progress at his own speed. Just like with reading as he gets better at it the standard is raised. All the time his understanding will become better. With reading no matter how great anyones vocabulary is they will still come across that word that they have never met and don't understand. When this happens they will look it up and add it to their vocabulary.

If you want to reduce the "Wiggle Room" you need to work with the Scout and have him set goals which are realistic. If he meets these goals great, if he fails, we need to think about starting over.

As to the uniform thing. I have never come across a Scout who owns a uniform that has flat out refused to wear it. Some are very careful as to where and when they wear it. I like to think that most leaders worth their salt could persuade (not order.) A Lad that there are times and places when he might want to wear it.

Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[Eamonn]

 

I have just read this and:

Not helpful to others. I can see how a Lad is not helpful to some people, some of the time.

But being as the words say: "To help other people at all times;"

I think that each and everyone of us are unable to live up to that. I was driving down the road the other day. It was a very cold day and there on the side of the road was a young man trying to hitch a ride. I had an appointment and I don't pick up hitch-hikers. I know nothing about how he came to be there or where he was going. I drove on by. This falls short of "Help other people at all times."

"not willing to wear the uniform properly or as requested." Uniform is a method of Scouting not a requirement. You might as well have failed him for not wearing green underwear. Sure wearing a Scout Uniform is an outward sign of accepting the ideals of Scouting, but I would hope I have as much Scout Spirit out of uniform as I do in uniform.

"not willing to set the example of good behavior when around other scouts"

I have to think if he was guilty of not setting an example of good behavior, he must have been doing something wrong.This could depending on what he was doing wrong be grounds to delay signing off on the Scout Spirit requirement.I do find it a little bit strange that a Lad could make it all the way to Life Scout Rank, then do all the Eagle Scout requirements only to start setting a bad example and doing things that are wrong. We know that the Scout Spirit was in good shape just before he made Life Scout, if it wasn't why was it signed off?

Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[Fuzzy Bear]

Eamonn,

 

You are always a First Class Scouter in my book. (*and I don't mean the Progress Award)

 

Please do not let the process of written clarification make you think otherwise.

 

It may be that we should always begin with something like, "I may be missing something or misunderstanding... because I know full well that we agree on this point but let me make it anyway".

 

FB

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

Fuzzy Bear,

Thanks for the kind words.

I'm not sure that I understand what point you are trying to make?

There are times when I don't think that I'm missing something. There are times when I really don't think that I see eye to eye with another forum member.

This doesn't make me right or someone wrong.

It sure as heck doesn't make anyone bad. It doesn't give me the right to treat anyone in an Un-Scoutlike way.

I hope that I haven't acted in a Un-Scout way.

Eamonn.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

"First I do want to try and clear my name!! "

 

I was responding to your own comment.

 

 

FB