tobacco use

[Trevorum]

(This is spun from a thread by cajuncody about alhohol use.)

 

How do ya'll handle tobacco use by adults? A total ban during scout events (can make for a long & testy weekend for some), or a designated out-of-sight smoking area? We are lucky not to have this problem, but new Webelos parents are fixin to join up and I want to be prepared!

[SemperParatus]

We have one adult that smokes who is on about half of our trips (less lately since he found a girlfriend). The first time he lit up, I politely asked him to please do it out of sight from the scouts, preferably in the parking area. He understands and has not posed a problem in the four years he has been with us. Funny how, after the mile swim (which he always completes way ahead of anyone else in camp) he always disappears for a smoke.

 

We always address it at the New Scout/Parent Meeting we hold just before crossover.

 

 

[acco40]

Answers can be found in the G2SS. As usual, with most BSA publications, the proverbial "What the heck does that mean?" questions arise. While in reality tobacco, in the USA, is a controlled substance (there are restrictions on who may purchase), from a legal standpoint it is NOT considered a controlled substance. Therefore, it is NOT prohibited at encampments or activities wrt G2SS.

 

The G2SS DOES prohibit the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants. Let me repeat that for the SLOW - the use of tobacco products are prohibited at any BSA activity involving youth participants. However, when no youth participants are present, i.e. such activities as Woodbadge, training, etc. it states that "All Scouting functions, meetings, and activities should be conducted on a smoke-free basis, with smoking areas located away from all participants."

 

Unfortunately, some have tried to put two and two together and believe that smoking is allowed if it is away from (out of sight) youth participants. This is incorrect. Read the G2SS again - it prohibits the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants.

 

From G2SS:

The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members.

 

Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants.

 

All Scouting functions, meetings, and activities should be conducted on a smoke-free basis, with smoking areas located away from all participants.

 

From the DEA:

The term "controlled substance" ... does not include distilled spirits, wine, malt beverages, or tobacco, as those terms are defined or used in subtitle E of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 [26 USCS Sections 5001 et seq.].

 

 

 

[EagleInKY]

Acco - Interesting interpretation. I bet, however, if you read any boy scout summer camp pamphlet, it will state that smoking is allowed away from the boys. That seems to conflict with your interpretation.

 

We have one smoker. He doesn't come on many activities, but when he does, he smokes away from the boys. He comes to some troop meetings, and always smokes outside in the back of the building.

[Aardvark]

I smoke a pipe.

 

On campouts, I take a short walk into the woods away from the Scouts and have a pipefull.

 

it's funny though, My main memories of my Scoutmaster when I was a lad was him smoking his pipe; and how he would turn it upside down when it was raining!

 

Bad influence?

 

I hope not!

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Acco,

 

This dead horse has been beaten so many times in this forum that I'm surprised it has any hide left on it.

 

People interpret the passage differently and the BSA has never seen fit to clarify their intent. Lets look at it again.

 

Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants.

 

The word prohibit never appears anywhere in the statement. This is kind of like Clinton's old "what is the meaning of is" thing. The BSA chose to use the word "may". Some take that to mean "will" and others take it to mean "might". Which is right? It seems to be whatever the person reading it wants it to be. To some, it seems as clear as a bell. To others, it is clear as mud.

 

The BSA has let it stand without clarification for a long time and it has never been resolved in this forum except in individual poster's minds.

[acco40]

I don't see how (straight from the G2SS) "Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants." leaves much room for interpretation.

 

I must admit however that as SM, I don't ban smoking from our outings. Parents and leaders who smoke do so out of sight of the youth. Most kids know which parents smoke - their children sure do. Qhat others me is the fact that I may not witness the adults smoking but I'll find behind the troop trailer or on the side of the outhouse, etc. a small pile of butts - yeech! Most adults comply with the "out of sight" preference but the "field strip your butts" doesn't seem to get followed very often.

 

Now about the time one of the parents showed up to our camp site and offered me a beer ...

 

P.S. Yes, the horse is getting raw. However, from my understanding of the English language the word "may" has a few primary definitions: 1a) have the ability to (archaic - now one uses "can") 1b) have permission to (you may go now) 1c) used to indicate possibility or probability (you may be right). Why on Earth would the 1c definition be used in a "rules" guide? I firmly believe that anyone who has a firm grasp of the English language and is not biased by what one wants to believe would instantly recognize that the 1b defiinition applies. My parents taught me the difference between words "may" and "can." When my mother looked at me and plainly stated, "you may not go outside until you finish cleaning your room" she was not giving me options!(This message has been edited by acco40)

[OldGreyEagle]

When I was a youth our scoutmaster smoked like a chimney, he once inhaled an entire cigarrette and then played taps on his bugle. The picture of the smoke rolling out of the bugle is a prized possesion. The adults of the troop would commonly share a six pack around the campfire, Schlitz I think was the favorite. The scouts all knew better than to snitch a swallow as you could end up with a bloody stump if you even pretended to grab for the beer. Sometimes I wonder if the example of adults each drinking one can of beer and enjoying fellowship rather than drinking themselves stupid would not be more powerful than the current policy of ignoring the fact alcohol is part of our culture.

 

The problem, I know, is one injury from one tipsy scoutmaster and its all over so no alcohol on scout trips.

 

BTW, my scoutmaster smoked Camels, even back then he called them his coffin nails....

[SemperParatus]

Has this forum addressed the car smoker. Our smoker has had to transport scouts on occasion in his car. I am sure he has transported scouts who have parents that do not smoke. I don't know what happened in the car, but I would suspect this guy lit one up while the scouts were being driven by him. He may have asked beforehand, but my guess would be that he did not.

 

Do troops make accomodations for this situation? Prohibit car smoking while transporting scouts? Arrange transports so that only scouts with smoking parents are transported by smokers?(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[FScouter]

G2SS: "... smoking areas located away from all participants." This sounds crystal clear to me, but I'm not a smoker looking for a loophole.

[Eamonn]

The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members.

 

Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants.

 

All Scouting functions, meetings, and activities should be conducted on a smoke-free basis, with smoking areas located away from all participants.

I smoke and follow the guide. I expect people who chew or rub to join me in the smoking area, they are using tobacco same as I am. If I see anyone smoking, rubbing or chewing I will ask them to use the designated area. If non smokers want to see me when I'm in the area then it is their choice. They can wait till I'm done or come to the area.

While I agree with not smoking in non smoking areas and respecting the rights of nonsmokers or tobacco users. I do think that I have some rights as a smoker.

I understand that alcohol use at all Scouting facilities is a definite no. I can go without alcohol for weeks. If I couldn't I wouldn't sign up for events that would mean no alcohol. If a event is a total "Smoke Free Event" Please tell me ahead of time, so I know not to attend. Please don't wait till I'm there and then tell me. This isn't fair to me.

At Philmont Conference Center a few years back there was two choices you could smoke in your car or at the designated smoking area. I was happy to comply with these rules. Some one told me that they went unknowingly to a Scout facility which was smoke free. In order to smoke they had to drive off the site. Of course they complied with the rule, but people got very upset that they could never find the person when they needed him!! Because he was out driving around. I very much doubt if he will ever return to that facility.

At this time I am a smoker. If Scouting were to become totally Smoke Free, I would have to leave. While I know that everyone can be replaced. When I would go I would cease my support. If this comes off as sounding irresponsible, I'm sorry it's just how I feel.

Eamonn.

Eamonn

 

 

 

[dsteele]

Thank you Eamonn for saving me the trouble of typing so many words. You said exactly what I was going to say.

 

Unc.

[FireKat]

Unfortunately, I too am a smoker. This is a physical addition of the body of all people by niciotine where alcohol is not addicting except in a small minority. (look up the definations). This makes it very hard on a smoker to go long without a 'nic fix. My dad was a smoker & a forester & expeceted the "leave no trace" precent forest fires. He show some very good ways a smoker can comply. My favorite is to make sure your butt cannot cause a fire: put it out & put it in your pocket. That way you do not leave any trash & if you did a bad job of putting it out you are the only on to pay (the non-smokers love it when the smoker hops around). I always try to stay away for the boys but that can teach them how to sneek around to smoke themselves.

I also very much agree with OGE that moderation & modeling proper behavior in alcohol use is best. Worked great on my oldest (now 21, drinks once a year) even though he was exposed to many people(firefighters) drinking heavy at times. I have some great stories 0f these things. DSon't want to bore you so I will finish by saying that I like the policies in general with tobacco and alcohol.

[packsaddle]

I think I see a small patch of hide remaining. I have interpreted the part of the G2SS using the word, "may" using definition 1B (from ACCO40). If a person were to ask me if they could use tobacco they might ask, "May I?" I would respond, "No, you may not." Mercifully, this unit has no leaders and very few parents that use tobacco. If we did I would not allow boys for whom such adults were not the parent to ride with them. "No, you may not ride in a non-smoke-free car." But we don't have a problem with transportation either.

 

To me it is sad when intelligent adults decide not to quit tobacco. Sadder still when they are not mindful of the risk that a boy might view them and their addiction as a positive role model.

[Eamonn]

All Scouting functions, meetings, and activities should be conducted on a smoke-free basis, with smoking areas located away from all participants.

This is from the G2SS.

I see this to include any place where there are youth members, which does include any vehicle they may be in.

I don't smoke around people who for any reason find it offensive. I don't smoke in my car when Her That Must Be Obeyed is in it.

However, if I was undertaking a long trip and an adult were to ask for a ride, I would explain that I am a smoker. I'm willing to pay for the gas to get me to where I'm going. If you want to save a couple of bucks that is your choice.

This:All Scouting functions, meetings, and activities should be conducted on a smoke-free basis, with smoking areas located away from all participants.

Does not "Outlaw smokers or smoking" It is to my way of thinking very clear. Trying to interpret the word "May" is completely redundant just read the guide.

Eamonn.