Pinewood Derby Eliminations

[SemperParatus]

Years ago, when I was running PWDs we used the Perfect n method

to give each scout a greater number of runs, neutralize lane factors, eliminate matchup issues and to better determine the fastest car.

 

http://members.aol.com/StanDCmr/pwraces.html

 

Has this method caught on with packs, or are most packs still running double elimination bracket races?

 

 

 

 

 

[EagleInKY]

There are two extremes in pinewood derby scoring that I abhor. The first is double-elimination. Our pack did that until I took over as CM. I tried to get it stopped my first year (I was Tiger leader) and I heard all of the excuses ("it will take to long", "no one will understand it"). We changed to a form of the perfect n system and everyone loves it.

 

The other extreme that I don't like is the "total time" method. They race a car once in each lane, add up the total seconds, and give the winner based upon total time. It takes all the competitiveness out of it. To me, it's part of the "touchy-feely, we're not keeping score, we're just racing against the clock" mentatlity that's too present in just about everything we do.

 

But I digress. Our pack uses a form of the perfect n method. I don't think it's in the majority of units though. I think more are moving to timer based systems

[ScoutNut]

We have not used elimination PWD races for about 6 years. We use a version of the perfect-n.

 

The boys keep racing until the end and love it!

 

 

[firstpusk]

My Cub is now an 18 year old Eagle, so it has been a few years since I have been involved in a pinewood. My first year in the pack we ran double elimination. Half of my den was from single-parent households. The involvement of the father in these families was spotty at best. These boys got little help from home. They were out after two races and cried. One tried to destroy his car. After that, our pack never ran double elimination.

 

We used a method much like the Perfect n. The boys all got to race. Everybody seemed very happy. The time to run the derby was less than the double eliminations always took so the leaders and parents were happy, too!

 

We also gave out a lot of crazy awards for the cars appearance and some for mishaps. For example, we gave an award for the car most likely made by a Cub and the Stuntman award for the most interesting wipeout.

 

Most packs in my district have converted to this superior method. Many have added parent, sibling and leader races because these methods are so efficient. There is less waiting, fewer tears and more fun.

[Sylvar]

We moved to a points based system last year. We used Darin McGrew's chaotic slotting method and it worked very well. All boys got to run at least 8 times. I wouldn't worry too much about the time. We averaged a heat every 1.5 minutes and I really think we will do better than that this year.

 

We have a lane judge, but no timer.

 

Oh, One other thing....on the same site you posted Stan documents a chartless elimination method that I know some have used with success. With it you have 4-6 eliminations and cars with similar records race which gives more boys a chance to at least win one race

[Twocubdad]

I ran the numbers on the Perfect n system for our pack a couple years ago. With close to 100 boys in our pack entering cars I believe it worked out to something over 1800 heats. Even if you could keep a pace of one heat per minute, well, you do the math....

 

With a four lane track each heat consists of four runs rotating across the lanes. The top two cars advance, the bottom two retire. Living in the heart of NASCAR country our boys are very familiar with the phrase, "that's racin'."

 

We do have another track set up that the boys who are out of the competition can play on. We have Boy Scouts staff that track. We also bring in about 30 pizzas and make a full day of it. We've run the races this way for about thee years and it has worked well for us.

[EagleInKY]

Barry - We have over 60 boys in our pack. Probably 50 or so race each year. We also have a leaders race (about 12-15 usually), a girl scout race (another 10 or so), an open legal class (about 20), and an open "modified" (i.e. no holds barred) (another 20 or so). Plus we have the pack championship (12 boys). We start at about 8:30 and wrap up around 2:00. We do donuts in the morning, pizza for lunch and a bake sale.

 

The system works much faster than you would think. For 100 boys, with a 4 lane track, I think it would come out to only around 600 heats. But I don't remember the math off the top of my head.

 

 

[Sylvar]

TwoCubDad,

With that many boys instead of a full perfect-n I would run a Partial Perfect-n or a Chaotic rotation like Sterns or McGrew. Another good option is the N-elimination method shown here: http://members.aol.com/standcmr/nelim.html

 

In our district most have moved away from 2E style races toward a points based method. With 2E 50% are eliminated by their 3rd race. In the case of 100 cubs that is 50 with nothing to do. The way we run all the boys are involved right down to the last race. We race by rank and the heats rotate by rank (tiger heat followed by a wolf heat followed by a bear heat and so on.)

 

Sylvar

 

 

[EagleInKY]

Oops - I should have addressed my comment to Twocubdad, not Barry. My bad.

[Twocubdad]

So at a steady pace of one race per minute -- which would, frankly, be impossible to keep -- 600 races would only take 10 hours. Eagle, you may be right about the number of heats. I think I came up with the 1800 figure before we got the four lane track

 

For those of you appalled by double elimination races, we're actually running a single elimination race. Half of the cars are retired after every round. Every couple years when we get a new PWD chairman we take a look at other formats. Frankly, given the number of boys we have and the time it would take to run one of the N races, it just isn't worth the time commitment. We're talking days....

 

We've eliminated the standing around factor by assigning start times for each rank. We start with the Webelos 2s and work down to the Tigers. We leave an hour for each rank. Because we normally have fewer Webelos and more Tigers, that give the race officials a little extra time in for the early races and pushes any overtime to the end. The pack final follows the Tiger race, which means the Webelos winners either leave and come back for the final of hang around all day.

 

Bottom line is that it works for us. The boys who are eliminated from the race have plenty of other things to do. Many really get into watching the races and cheering for their buddies.

[Sylvar]

Twocubdad,

I apologize if this sounds rough, but you don't sound like you enjoy the derby. Seems like you just want to get it over as fast as you can and be done with it. It can be a great time if you give it a chance.

 

You are wrong about time being an ultimate show stopper. There are district races that bring in over 400 boys that run in 5 hours or less. And that is with set start times for each rank. Bottom line is it CAN be done.

 

Straight Single elim with 100 cars on a 4 lane track. That is only 35 heats total. You can run that in 45 minutes. In 4 hours you could give them a 4 elim by rank with a perfect-n final.

 

25 cars in a rank running a single elim is only 10 heats. I can't see how that takes an hour?

 

Sylvar

[Twocubdad]

You may have missed the part in an earlier post where I explained that each "heat" consists of four runs with the cars rotating across the track to eliminate any lane bias. So everyone gets to see their cars make at least four trips down the track, although it is only four consecutive trips for some.

 

I'm more than happy with the PWD. I just think six hours of racing, plus another hour of the pack meeting the following night devoted to voting on design awards and giving out trophies is more than enough, thank you very much.

 

Personally, I much prefer building the cars than the actual race. I have a fairly substantial wood working shop and have anywhere from 20 to 30 boys and dads over to work on cars. A couple den usually schedule den meetings here during PWD season. To me, that's the fun part. Race day is just a lot of work.

 

Personally, I think the Raingutter Regatta is a better program. There just isn't as much fancy stuff you can do to the boats and the outcome is much more dependant on how well the boys blow their boats. It is also very easy for the den leaders to set up two gutters and have a mini regatta at a den meeting. The boys enjoy playing with their boats as much as they do actually racing. Our PWD track takes about an hour to set up and not quite that long to tear down. It also requires reserving the church gym. Not many den leaders want to put forth that effort for 30 minutes of a den meeting. Besides, after watching the boys "play" with their PWD cars on the second track during the race, I don't think they really have that much fun simply watching their car run down the track.

[ScoutNut]

"Besides, after watching the boys "play" with their PWD cars on the second track during the race, I don't think they really have that much fun simply watching their car run down the track."

 

 

No, of course they don't. That's why most eliminated boys will just give up and go home early.

 

However, if they are still running in "the" race, and there is any kind of chance they might win at least 1 race, they wil be up like a shot when their number is called, race to the parking lot for their car and cheer at the top of their lungs as it plunges down the track. They might be disappointed by a loss, but there is always the chance that the next time their number is called they will not lose. And up until we announce that the next race is the last one of the night for 1st, 2nd & 3rd place, that hope is still there. Then comes the suspense of whose numbers will be called and what the outcome will be.

 

The boys don't want to "play" with their PWD cars. They want to RACE them!

 

[Sylvar]

TwoCubDad,

You are quite right, I forgot about your lane rotation reference.

 

If I can point out something that may be helpful. In your format a rank of 25 runs 40 heats. A PPN or McGrew method rotation would only have 4 more heats and each boy would get 8 races. And each boy would race against more cars.

 

This would actually run faster because you won't be waiting on the boys to retrieve their cars and return to the starting line. You can start staging the next heat as soon as the previous heat gets to the bottom of the track (which is what we do).

 

Just a thought!

 

I commend you on holding the Derby workshops. I do that in my work shop as well and I agree that BUILDING the car is the point of the derby. Getting to race is the icing on the cake.(This message has been edited by Sylvar)

[cajuncody]

JQuestion:

We have a small pack witha bout 20 scouts, 10 siblings, and 8 adults that race cars. What method would be best for us on a 2 lane track?

Kristi