Anybody Else Seeing This Trend?

[OaklandAndy]

As a former Camp Director, I can tell you that MB's nowadays is more about "going through the motions" than having any actually....merit. I couldn't stand to see it and also one of the reasons why I left. It isn't uncommon for scouts to leave with 8+ mb's...but like they say...just because you can doesn't mean you should. I miss the days of quality and luckily some MB's can't just be given (shooting sports, swimming, climbing, etc.), at least I hope not. 

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, OaklandAndy said:

I couldn't stand to see it and also one of the reasons why I left.

Thanks for sharing. It is sad. I can’t help with STEM days or other merit badge days for the same reason. I can’t be a part of going through the motions, but not earning the badge. 

[DuctTape]

My district merit badge "college" director called me to see if I would do Camping merit badge as I was a registered mB counselor, she wanted to know if I needed a full day for it, or whether a half-day session was enough. 😲 

I have said this before but it bears repeating, one of the most important parts of the mB process is the built Adult Association method. Far too often this is lost on the adults. Imagine if the adults in charge of coordinating the mBs at camp, or in a troop had this method at the forefront equal to the advancement method. 🤩 Now imagine the lost opportunities for scouts when this is not done. 😢

[jcousino]

On 4/15/2025 at 1:02 AM, Tron said:

What I am seeing is that there is no goldilocks zone for todays scouts. It's either the troop is a meatgrinder and only scouts with professional proficiency are getting things signed off or the opposite where anything can get signed off. 

I think the answer is unit leaders (all of us) and national need to push WAY WAY more outdoors programming. Some of the program needs to shift back towards scout skills emphasis; I would personally yank some of the non scout skill eagle MB and replace them with orienteering, wilderness survival, and backpacking. 

Part of the outdoor programming has a higher cost, requires more skill from the adults, and requires more output from scouts and parents.

Most troops act more like family groups going camping. Group cooking etc

Somewhere, we have lost the, at least when I was a scout, it was the process that made you an Eagle Scout, not pinning on a badge. I remember meeting people who were active in their fields as merit badge counselors. Summer camp was for the rarer outdoor merit badges, i.e., swimming, lifesaving, riflery, and other shooting scouts. See the OA perform back when there was an awe factor.  

Se focus on the badge numbers not the process. 

john

[Eagle94-A1]

I taught at 1 MBU, and was never asked back. I told the folks running it, it would be a partial UNLESS the Scout did work before hand to do the stuff I was unable to do at the event. out of about 50- 60 people in 2 sessions, 1 person did the work before coming to the MBU.  Another Scout contacted me after the event with the work. No one else contacted me about the badge. And the folks running it never asked me again. Same event, but a friend's encounter.  Crime Prevention MB had a disruptive Scout. Was sent out after a few problems. At the end of the day, complains he never got Crime Prevention MB that he "Paid for."

Thankfully my district knows not to convert a camporee into a MBU. They did that 1 year. Attendance was poor, and only 2 units liked it.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I taught at 1 MBU, and was never asked back. I told the folks running it, it would be a partial UNLESS the Scout did work before hand to do the stuff I was unable to do at the event. out of about 50- 60 people in 2 sessions, 1 person did the work before coming to the MBU.  Another Scout contacted me after the event with the work. No one else contacted me about the badge. And the folks running it never asked me again. Same event, but a friend's encounter.  Crime Prevention MB had a disruptive Scout. Was sent out after a few problems. At the end of the day, complains he never got Crime Prevention MB that he "Paid for."

Thankfully my district knows not to convert a camporee into a MBU. They did that 1 year. Attendance was poor, and only 2 units liked it.

 

Went with our Troop to a Merit Badge College our council organized some years ago.  Two Scouts wanted to do Drafting Merit Badge for one of their activities.  For Drafting Merit Badge, the pre-req was the formatting of the two sheets, and doing a drawing and lettering project.

Having some minor experience in drafting, I guided them both on the research and completion of the pre-reqs.

We went to the MB College... there were about 25 Scouts in this class.  Counselor was an experienced Scouter and draftsman in the prestigious university we were at (Ivy League school)

Only the two from our Troop had done the pre-reqs.  The MBC at the end of the class handed out signed blue cards for completion to all Scouts and told them they were "On Their Honor" to complete the pre-reqs before they gave the blue card to their unit leader.

I was floored, but I was not going to confront the MBC in front of the Scouts.  After he dismissed them, I spoke to him, and tried, tactfully, to tell him those should have been partials, and that it would have been better if he had recognized the work done by the Scouts who made the effort to complete the badge.

He said flatly that he knew this was not in accordance with the Guide to Advancement, but this was they way he had always done it, and there were never any complaints.  I remember he said something to the effect of "...most of them would never get the badge otherwise."

I told him I would file a complaint with the council, because this violated the Guide to Advancement, his own Scout Oath and Law, and put those Scouts in a really bad position.  The blue card states, "The applicant has personally appeared before me and demonstrated to my satisfaction that all requirements have been met for ..." and he was willfully lying on the form.

When I filed the form with council, guess what happened???  Nothing.  (Counselor was also a regular donor...)

How does that meet our mission " ... to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." ???

I did have a chat with our two Scouts later.  Both were upset they had done the work when others hadn't, and they felt cheated.

I told them they were not cheated... it was the other Scouts who were cheated.  These two had gotten their just reward because they had earned it.  The others were give the burden of a lie they will carry with them always.

 

[jcousino]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Went with our Troop to a Merit Badge College our council organized some years ago.  Two Scouts wanted to do Drafting Merit Badge for one of their activities.  For Drafting Merit Badge, the pre-req was the formatting of the two sheets, and doing a drawing and lettering project.

Having some minor experience in drafting, I guided them both on the research and completion of the pre-reqs.

We went to the MB College... there were about 25 Scouts in this class.  Counselor was an experienced Scouter and draftsman in the prestigious university we were at (Ivy League school)

Only the two from our Troop had done the pre-reqs.  The MBC at the end of the class handed out signed blue cards for completion to all Scouts and told them they were "On Their Honor" to complete the pre-reqs before they gave the blue card to their unit leader.

I was floored, but I was not going to confront the MBC in front of the Scouts.  After he dismissed them, I spoke to him, and tried, tactfully, to tell him those should have been partials, and that it would have been better if he had recognized the work done by the Scouts who made the effort to complete the badge.

He said flatly that he knew this was not in accordance with the Guide to Advancement, but this was they way he had always done it, and there were never any complaints.  I remember he said something to the effect of "...most of them would never get the badge otherwise."

I told him I would file a complaint with the council, because this violated the Guide to Advancement, his own Scout Oath and Law, and put those Scouts in a really bad position.  The blue card states, "The applicant has personally appeared before me and demonstrated to my satisfaction that all requirements have been met for ..." and he was willfully lying on the form.

When I filed the form with council, guess what happened???  Nothing.  (Counselor was also a regular donor...)

How does that meet our mission " ... to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." ???

I did have a chat with our two Scouts later.  Both were upset they had done the work when others hadn't, and they felt cheated.

I told them they were not cheated... it was the other Scouts who were cheated.  These two had gotten their just reward because they had earned it.  The others were give the burden of a lie they will carry with them always.

it's a bit heavy to think that they will carry with them the burden of the LIE forever more than likely 10 minutes after they left the event they didn't remember anything about the event if I'm dealing with normal scouts that I see scouting needs a 13th law but it'll never happen they need a law that deals with integrity  scouting has integrity. integrity it is very rare. if you persist in doing the right thing by trying to force scouting to have integrity you'll get a letter from the office saying we no longer need your services you're using up too much of our of our time thank you very much.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

54 minutes ago, jcousino said:

it's a bit heavy to think that they will carry with them the burden of the LIE forever more than likely 10 minutes after they left the event they didn't remember anything about the event if I'm dealing with normal scouts that I see scouting needs a 13th law but it'll never happen they need a law that deals with integrity  scouting has integrity. integrity it is very rare. if you persist in doing the right thing by trying to force scouting to have integrity you'll get a letter from the office saying we no longer need your services you're using up too much of our of our time thank you very much.

yes, you are most likely correct.  But it did help shift the focus of the two to deal with what they were thinking about the situation.

As for integrity... it is built into Trustworthy.

If I had a 13th point of the Scout Law, it would be that a Scout is Grateful.

[BetterWithCheddar]

20 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Thankfully my district knows not to convert a camporee into a MBU.

In my youth, most camporees had a theme and scouts could earn 1 MB by participating. You're telling me some districts try to cram multiple MBs into a single weekend campout?

[DuctTape]

1 hour ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

In my youth, most camporees had a theme and scouts could earn 1 MB by participating. You're telling me some districts try to cram multiple MBs into a single weekend campout?

There are some who do not even do these on a campout. They are done in indoor classrooms with 30 scouts and a mB "counselor" doing a 2-3 hour presentation including a few hands-on activities. These mB universities cheapen the mB and deny scouts real opportunities. It is both saddening and maddening.

[Jameson76]

On 4/14/2025 at 10:43 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

So as you may know, my troop recruits by word of mouth. Mostly transfers from other units. I am seeing a really depressing trend, Scouts coming in with skills signed off, but have no idea what to do or are not able to do it. 

From one troop we have a guy who was signed off on a bunch of stuff through First Class, including passing a swim test. Yet when we did the annual swim test, could barely pass the beginner test. When I asked about it, he said he didn't remember passing a swim test, but his old troop signed off on it after summer camp. When asked if he took instructional swim ever, he said no.

We got another potential Scout, he is checking out other  troops now, visit us a few times. When I asked about what rank he is, experience with o other troop, etc. It is a deer on the headlights. When working on Scout skills, deer in the headlights when asked to do them. He doesn't even know what rank he is. When I finally met the dad, dad said he is First Class and dad has all the paperwork. When I told dad once he joins the troop, I can access SCOUTBOOK, and whatever is missing I can use his handbook, dad said he doesn't have a handbook, but he has a folder of what he has done.

Finally, we got a Life Scout transfer in. Took him camping, and forgot a bunch of gear, including gear I sent reminders on. He didn't know how to pack for a campout, nor set up a tent. When asked about camping, he said troop went camping 2, maybe 3 times a year. And summer camp was on your own as provisional. Previous to the campout he asked about his remaining MBs. I checked Scoutbook, and when I mentioned Citizenship in the Community, he told me he should have that because we went to the city meeting. When I told him more is involved with the MB, he told me that his previous SM told him all he needed to do was the city meeting and he got it. The topic of board of reviews came up talking to another Scout. He asked what they were. When I explained what they were, and asked about them in his old troop, he told me, "Oh, Mr. (SM's Name) and Mr. (CC's (?) name) said they don't have time to do one, but I got the rank."

Is anyone else seeing this trend of folks getting signed off, but not actually doing the work? And of course, once it is in Scoutbook, it is a done deal.

 

This seems to be part of the overall trend where Scouting is less experiential learning, less growing through group dynamics, less boy led and more, well almost school work focus.  Along with MBU and not really becoming "Scouts", this is wanted by parents, who do not want to actually be involved, they just have expectations.  They are expecting the new scouts to stay within their peer groups, stay in their comfort zones, get socially promoted through the ranks and be led by the leaders through monitored and "safe" activities.  That whole outdoor and weekend camping interferes with sports, is scary and challenging,  and boys may get dirty and be uncomfortable.  Also how will the parents keep an eye on them, I mean they aren't heading out to the woods as an ASM or leader.  In many cases the new crossover families want a warm and embracing Webelos III experience.

The challenge is many boys, after 5th grade, find this somewhat boring.  The retention rates is very low for many units due to these expectations and families assuming the Scouts program (11 - 17 years olds) will be like Cubs.  One of the reasons there is not overall growth in the program.  On a macro scale the promise of fun and adventure in many (though not all) cases is not being delivered.  Units are getting way smaller.  Average size for units at our camp 8 years ago was +/- 24 youth in camp.  Last year the average was less than 17 youth.

The Scouts that are in units that camp, that challenge them, that get them out of their normal comfort zone, and let the youth run the program keep those Scouts.  Those units lose most to aging out, not just having kids not showing up any more.  Sadly there are less and less units that are run in this manner.

[mrjohns2]

10 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

In my youth, most camporees had a theme and scouts could earn 1 MB by participating. You're telling me some districts try to cram multiple MBs into a single weekend campout?

Our district has the option to earn 1 or 2. I’m involved as an archery MCA ONLY so scouts can complete partials from camp. I think that is a good service for the Scouts where the others MBs are not good scouting. 
 

In my youth, there were no MBs at camporees nor were there merit badge universities. 

Edited 11 hours ago by mrjohns2