Anybody Else Seeing This Trend?

[Eagle94-A1]

So as you may know, my troop recruits by word of mouth. Mostly transfers from other units. I am seeing a really depressing trend, Scouts coming in with skills signed off, but have no idea what to do or are not able to do it. 

From one troop we have a guy who was signed off on a bunch of stuff through First Class, including passing a swim test. Yet when we did the annual swim test, could barely pass the beginner test. When I asked about it, he said he didn't remember passing a swim test, but his old troop signed off on it after summer camp. When asked if he took instructional swim ever, he said no.

We got another potential Scout, he is checking out other  troops now, visit us a few times. When I asked about what rank he is, experience with o other troop, etc. It is a deer on the headlights. When working on Scout skills, deer in the headlights when asked to do them. He doesn't even know what rank he is. When I finally met the dad, dad said he is First Class and dad has all the paperwork. When I told dad once he joins the troop, I can access SCOUTBOOK, and whatever is missing I can use his handbook, dad said he doesn't have a handbook, but he has a folder of what he has done.

Finally, we got a Life Scout transfer in. Took him camping, and forgot a bunch of gear, including gear I sent reminders on. He didn't know how to pack for a campout, nor set up a tent. When asked about camping, he said troop went camping 2, maybe 3 times a year. And summer camp was on your own as provisional. Previous to the campout he asked about his remaining MBs. I checked Scoutbook, and when I mentioned Citizenship in the Community, he told me he should have that because we went to the city meeting. When I told him more is involved with the MB, he told me that his previous SM told him all he needed to do was the city meeting and he got it. The topic of board of reviews came up talking to another Scout. He asked what they were. When I explained what they were, and asked about them in his old troop, he told me, "Oh, Mr. (SM's Name) and Mr. (CC's (?) name) said they don't have time to do one, but I got the rank."

Is anyone else seeing this trend of folks getting signed off, but not actually doing the work? And of course, once it is in Scoutbook, it is a done deal.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

So as you may know, my troop recruits by word of mouth. Mostly transfers from other units. I am seeing a really depressing trend, Scouts coming in with skills signed off, but have no idea what to do or are not able to do it. 

From one troop we have a guy who was signed off on a bunch of stuff through First Class, including passing a swim test. Yet when we did the annual swim test, could barely pass the beginner test. When I asked about it, he said he didn't remember passing a swim test, but his old troop signed off on it after summer camp. When asked if he took instructional swim ever, he said no.

We got another potential Scout, he is checking out other  troops now, visit us a few times. When I asked about what rank he is, experience with o other troop, etc. It is a deer on the headlights. When working on Scout skills, deer in the headlights when asked to do them. He doesn't even know what rank he is. When I finally met the dad, dad said he is First Class and dad has all the paperwork. When I told dad once he joins the troop, I can access SCOUTBOOK, and whatever is missing I can use his handbook, dad said he doesn't have a handbook, but he has a folder of what he has done.

Finally, we got a Life Scout transfer in. Took him camping, and forgot a bunch of gear, including gear I sent reminders on. He didn't know how to pack for a campout, nor set up a tent. When asked about camping, he said troop went camping 2, maybe 3 times a year. And summer camp was on your own as provisional. Previous to the campout he asked about his remaining MBs. I checked Scoutbook, and when I mentioned Citizenship in the Community, he told me he should have that because we went to the city meeting. When I told him more is involved with the MB, he told me that his previous SM told him all he needed to do was the city meeting and he got it. The topic of board of reviews came up talking to another Scout. He asked what they were. When I explained what they were, and asked about them in his old troop, he told me, "Oh, Mr. (SM's Name) and Mr. (CC's (?) name) said they don't have time to do one, but I got the rank."

Is anyone else seeing this trend of folks getting signed off, but not actually doing the work? And of course, once it is in Scoutbook, it is a done deal.

 

Yes.

And have seen stuff like this for years... like, starting in the mid to late 1990's.  It falls in line with some council-run Summer Camp merit badge "mill" models many have created.  (Some camps are known for this (ours) and are packed with Scouts each year.)

Not unusual for a Scout to do a week of camp here and walk away with 8 to 11 MBs...

And still not know how to tie a taut line hitch 😜, fold a flag, start a fire, identify some common animals and plants, swim 100 yards (much less float and pass the Swimmer check), read a map, use a compass, measure 100 yards, know the difference between frostbite and hypothermia, or the difference between heat exhaustion and heat stroke (or treatment for any of the four) etc. etc. etc.

If councils will not run a program with integrity, units will follow suit...

We have a Troop of about 45 Scouts... less than 20% of them come to me when they want to learn a skill and get signed off.

But those Scouts know their stuff, and are the ones approved by the SM to sign off other Scouts.

The other 80+% have other leaders they will seek out for sign offs, because they know they'll get it easy.  (The leaders knowledge is Fair to Poor also...  but, hey! they did IOLS!!)

The really sad part is, I adhere to the mantra: "The requirements, and nothing more!  The requirements, and nothing less!"

  

[skeptic]

As noted already, it's not really new. Even in the early years, I am sure that the level of attainment varied widely from unit to unit. Our small unit struggles with the amazing loss of skill regularly with our own youth. Last week, the primary adult suggested they may want to consider a complete review of pioneering stuff.  When I was still actively working with COR events, generally the compass area, I was frustrated how many patrols had no clue how to even use the compass, much less orient it with a map and so on.  I had a couple of senior youth that walked about 30 percent of the patrols through the courses each year.  I was always glad to see the two or three expert backpacking goups come through, as I never had to help them much.  We rand a pioneering event that had them lashing the traditional travois, but then taking it apart to create a flagpolt to  hoist their flag on, though a few had to borrow a cloth for that.  Again, some did well, but most had little idea about raising a flagpole and the attaching guys.  Round lashings were a mystery to most.  

 

[Tron]

What I am seeing is that there is no goldilocks zone for todays scouts. It's either the troop is a meatgrinder and only scouts with professional proficiency are getting things signed off or the opposite where anything can get signed off. 

I think the answer is unit leaders (all of us) and national need to push WAY WAY more outdoors programming. Some of the program needs to shift back towards scout skills emphasis; I would personally yank some of the non scout skill eagle MB and replace them with orienteering, wilderness survival, and backpacking. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

6 hours ago, Tron said:

What I am seeing is that there is no goldilocks zone for todays scouts. It's either the troop is a meatgrinder and only scouts with professional proficiency are getting things signed off or the opposite where anything can get signed off. 

I think the answer is unit leaders (all of us) and national need to push WAY WAY more outdoors programming. Some of the program needs to shift back towards scout skills emphasis; I would personally yank some of the non scout skill eagle MB and replace them with orienteering, wilderness survival, and backpacking. 

I have never witnessed the inner workings of this "meatgrinder" or "professional proficiency" you speak of.  What do you mean by this, say, with reference to specific skills??  Are you referring to a Troop which tests Scouts multiple times, or where, during an SM conference, the SM tests skills and refuses to sign off that conference unless the Scout demonstrates proficiency?

I have heard of units like that, but either they do not last long, or the adults who create that climate move on fairly quickly and the pendulum moves toward the model (or swings past to the "anything can get signed off." )

The requirements themselves demand some level of proficiency...

For example, the First Class requirement to demonstrate a square lashing...  it had better start with a clove hitch on one pole, have three full wraps which alternate inside and outside of the previous wraps, two full fraps, and end with a clove hitch on the other pole.  All this is according to the Scout Handbook.  If it doesn't have those elements, it's not a square lashing, and that doesn't get signed off. 

I note that the description of "The Four Steps of Advancement" in the Scout Handbook says, in step   "2. You are tested: Once you feel that you have mastered a skill, a leader tests you..."  [emphasis added]

That might be where some people go off the deep end... the word mastery is very subjective, and means different things to different people.  But, I find the word "mastery" in no requirements themselves.

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

23 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

So as you may know, my troop recruits by word of mouth. Mostly transfers from other units. I am seeing a really depressing trend, Scouts coming in with skills signed off, but have no idea what to do or are not able to do it.

...

Yes. IMHO, this phenomena grew as camporee patrol competition gave way to weekend merit badgerees. 

Mastering requires practice. And the best incentive to practice is competition.

My $0.02,

P.S. What If? The nights camping requirements were tweaked to add x number of patrol competitions?

[mrjohns2]

18 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Yes. IMHO, this phenomena grew as camporee patrol competition gave way to weekend merit badgerees.

Good observation. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Yes. IMHO, this phenomena grew as camporee patrol competition gave way to weekend merit badgerees. 

Mastering requires practice. And the best incentive to practice is competition.

My $0.02,

P.S. What If? The nights camping requirements were tweaked to add x number of patrol competitions?

Wait... what is this "patrol" thing you speak of???  LOL

[fred8033]

10 hours ago, Tron said:

... WAY WAY more outdoors programming. Some of the program needs to shift back towards scout skills emphasis; I would personally yank some of the non scout skill eagle MB and replace them with orienteering, wilderness survival, and backpacking. 

This is what I view as key.  Focus on outdoors and growth. 

I've always held the view that the MB value is lowered when so many key MBs are light weight compared to public school.  Using my own education, the Citizenship, Family, Personal Management and Physical Fitness badges would have been easy except for checking off boxes.  When the challenge is about checking the boxes, the message learned is how do I game the system to get it done.  That gaming the system then bleeds into the other MBs.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Using my own education, the Citizenship, Family, Personal Management and Physical Fitness badges would have been easy except for checking off boxes.  

Sadly, some of the stuff is not being taught in schools, or well enough for them to remember. When I took a group of Scouts to DC, we did one of the historic trails that had a lot of Citizenship in the Nation info along the trail. Plus all the Scouts, except the visiting Webelos, had Civics in HS. NONE OF THE SCOUTS COULD TELL ME WHAT THE THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT WERE, THE BILL OF RIGHTS, ETC!!!!!!!!! (bold and caps for major emphasis). Only the homeschooled Weblos could give me the correct info for the MB. When I asked the Scouts if they had civics yet in HS, all said yes, but all they did was watch videos on their laptops. But that is a different topic for another day.

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Focus on outdoors and growth. 

Agree 100%

My troop has no feeder pack. Every time it seems as if we are going to fold, we get enough transfers to keep it alive another year. We are a hiking, camping, and biking troop. That is how we attract Scouts: focusing on Outdoors. As for growth, we focus on personal growth. We do not push MBs or advancement. If it takes 4 years for First Class, so be it. We let the Scouts grow at their own pace. Which is probably why our Eagles stick around until they turn 18, or go to college.

 

We are hanging on by a thread, but we are hanging on.

[BetterWithCheddar]

On 4/14/2025 at 3:25 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Not unusual for a Scout to do a week of camp here and walk away with 8 to 11 MBs...

Are you serious? How is that possible?

My son is Cub-age now, but when I was a council camp staffer in the early 2000s, 4 MBs was the max at summer camp. There were 2 sessions in the morning and 2 sessions in the afternoon. They ran Monday through Thursday with Friday being a "free" day. We were accused of overscheduling kids back then.

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Are you serious? How is that possible?

My son is Cub-age now, but when I was a council camp staffer in the early 2000s, 4 MBs was the max at summer camp. There were 2 sessions in the morning and 2 sessions in the afternoon. They ran Monday through Thursday with Friday being a "free" day. We were accused of overscheduling kids back then.

8 to 11 is "possible" and not "unusual", but it's still far from normal.  ... It's just very doable.  A few independent studies offered by camp.  A few camp special events (such as an afternoon Fingerprinting for the Fingerprinting MB).  Add a pushy parent.  etc, etc, etc.  Heck, you can probably earn one or more Citizen MBs just while at camp if the scout does some self-study before camp.

[InquisitiveScouter]

"Heck, you can probably earn be given one or more Citizen MBs just while at camp if the scout does some self-study before camp."

There, fixed that for you

[InquisitiveScouter]

5 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Are you serious? How is that possible?

My son is Cub-age now, but when I was a council camp staffer in the early 2000s, 4 MBs was the max at summer camp. There were 2 sessions in the morning and 2 sessions in the afternoon. They ran Monday through Thursday with Friday being a "free" day. We were accused of overscheduling kids back then.

Local camp runs six MB periods during the day, and an evening period on two different nights.  That's 8 badges... and for many of the "academic" ones, you can bring your "workbook" filled out to one of the instructors (not a counselor, btw), and be given the badge.

 

[BetterWithCheddar]

To be honest, I recall being very motivated to earn merit badges as a young scout. I flipped through the camp handbook every winter to plan my "perfect" summer camp where I would earn 4 new merit badges. I would have turned down a high adventure outing for the opportunity to earn one more merit badge. I don't think the focus on advancement is a bad thing, provided each merit badge is taught correctly and gives the camper a meaningful experience.

I take issue with all of the non-outdoor merit badges taught at summer camp these days - that just continues the "School 2" trend we've lamented about in other threads (how many camps now have a STEM Center?) Ideally, camps should offer outdoor merit badges that would be challenging for a troop to offer on their own (shooting sports, aquatics, etc.). Even if kids are "overscheduled" at summer camp, they are still having unique outdoor adventures.