Operation Snowshoe

[OaklandAndy]

Our council recently held a winter camping experience for our Webelos/AOLs this past weekend. It's a patrol-led event with "frosty" fun. 2 nights before the event, an email was sent out saying that the overnight portion is cancelled due to the temperature (forecast was a low of 17 degrees).

I wanted to get your thoughts on this as I feel that the overnight portion should not have been cancelled due to weather. 

Units who properly prepared for this should've of been able to handle the cold weather, not to mention the money that was already spent to have the proper gear and meals. I think that the option to camp overnight could've been switched to optional for those units who did not prepare adequately. 

What are your thoughts? What other information did I not consider to justify the decision by the council? 

[skeptic]

While I agree it should have been no huge issue with proper prep and back up.  But I also know that today, common activities we did with little thought are now preexamined for ANY type of legal problems.  And, knowing it might get really cold could be one of those.  When we still had our camp, and we did Winter camp, prep was stressed, but we also had a fireplace in the dining hall and one of our out buildings and the dining hall was kept with a fire.  So contingent plans were in place, which were sensible and available.  Today we are in constant CYA mode which does considerable harm to simply learning to cope.  I have no solution for over reactions and fear of problems, as too many people refuse to take responsibility for anything that comes up, even if the situation had a way to deal with stuff.  Johnny or Susie came home with a cold and had a miserable time, so here is our medical bill.  And they will no longer participate.  It is sad, and dealing with it is frustrating, but each one that somehow survives such awful experience will mostly smile later and wonder why they did not do more.  We had annual flashlight wars after dark at the winter camps, and some units went to separate campsites and did their own program, but joined with the larger group as well.  

 

[DuctTape]

The only other consideration would be wind. If it was going to be windy, like 20mph wind, that would make 17degrees feel like 0. 

Also if the camping area is exposed, strong winds could make visibility poor with blowing snow.

So besides temperature, there may have been other weather conditions to consider. 

Btw, I am in NY so 17 degrees is a warm winter day. I recently returned from a trip where the temp was minus 12.

[OaklandAndy]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

While I agree it should have been no huge issue with proper prep and back up.  But I also know that today, common activities we did with little thought are now preexamined for ANY type of legal problems.  And, knowing it might get really cold could be one of those.  When we still had our camp, and we did Winter camp, prep was stressed, but we also had a fireplace in the dining hall and one of our out buildings and the dining hall was kept with a fire.  So contingent plans were in place, which were sensible and available.  Today we are in constant CYA mode which does considerable harm to simply learning to cope.  I have no solution for over reactions and fear of problems, as too many people refuse to take responsibility for anything that comes up, even if the situation had a way to deal with stuff.  Johnny or Susie came home with a cold and had a miserable time, so here is our medical bill.  And they will no longer participate.  It is sad, and dealing with it is frustrating, but each one that somehow survives such awful experience will mostly smile later and wonder why they did not do more.  We had annual flashlight wars after dark at the winter camps, and some units went to separate campsites and did their own program, but joined with the larger group as well.  

 

That's what I was thinking too...besides outright "laziness", which seems to be more common. I took our 4/5 graders out a couple years ago for a overnight winter campout on a weekend where it was snowing and got below freezing and they had a blast. To be honest though, I thought they were all going to tell their parents that they wanted to leave because of the cold, but they didn't and really accomplished a lot that weekend. 

I was hoping this event would have a similar effect, however, this council disappoints once again. They may have their hands tied, but why offer it in the first place?

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

The only other consideration would be wind. If it was going to be windy, like 20mph wind, that would make 17degrees feel like 0. 

Also if the camping area is exposed, strong winds could make visibility poor with blowing snow.

So besides temperature, there may have been other weather conditions to consider. 

Btw, I am in NY so 17 degrees is a warm winter day. I recently returned from a trip where the temp was minus 12.

The weather conditions could not have been better for this time of year. No wind, cold yes, but no rain either. I often think about scouting in other areas where it stays predominately "too hot" or "too cold" and wonder if units are striking the whole camping experience just because of the weather conditions. I wouldn't think so, but with @skepticcomment about CYA, are we going to see more of it? 

[Jameson76]

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

While I agree it should have been no huge issue with proper prep and back up.  But I also know that today, common activities we did with little thought are now preexamined for ANY type of legal problems.  And, knowing it might get really cold could be one of those.  When we still had our camp, and we did Winter camp, prep was stressed, but we also had a fireplace in the dining hall and one of our out buildings and the dining hall was kept with a fire.  So contingent plans were in place, which were sensible and available.  Today we are in constant CYA mode which does considerable harm to simply learning to cope.  I have no solution for over reactions and fear of problems, as too many people refuse to take responsibility for anything that comes up, even if the situation had a way to deal with stuff.  Johnny or Susie came home with a cold and had a miserable time, so here is our medical bill.  And they will no longer participate.  It is sad, and dealing with it is frustrating, but each one that somehow survives such awful experience will mostly smile later and wonder why they did not do more.  We had annual flashlight wars after dark at the winter camps, and some units went to separate campsites and did their own program, but joined with the larger group as well.  

 

The CYA and concern over activities is (or can be) challenging.

Group of us that staff at camp was asked to do something at an upcoming council camporee (think things that go boom).  We do this for weekly campfires, use only items that can be legally purchased in our state, understand distances, how to safely do this, etc.  Have done this at camp for many years and have done this as several council events.  Never any issues and no even close calls.  Early on our main guy that organizes this for the camp declined.  The organizing group looked at options and due to costs came back to us, we said well sure (it's for the kids).  Then we were on a zoom call and they started laying out we needed this, and that, wanted lists of what were using, who was doing it etc, we were texting amongst ourselves (5 or 6 of us) and our main guy sort of stopped the call, said we understood their position, we may not be who they need, have a nice day, and ended the call.

They came back to us, we raised our budget and they basically begged us to do it, as we have gotten closer another "staff member" felt the need to exert wishes and input their control and so again we said well then we're out, and have a great day, good luck.  They quickly came back and we advised maybe, don't need the staff member involved, and again we're a maybe.

They did send payment, we are on the schedule for this to happen in the next few weeks and supposedly we are a go.  Made it clear any pushback that day and we can just load back up and roll on home.

Bottom line combining the CYA culture, the risk aversion culture, and the staff folks (who feel they are the ones that need to be in charge), it can take the fun and spontaneous nature out of stuff.  The rules for cub campouts and what is "required" to be an acceptable camping facility are extensive.  I've stayed at hotels with less amenities.