The conundrum of our current National Political challenges?

[skeptic]

Simply, how do we work around the huge issues that our political circus now presents, especially without being accused of trying to force personal opinion on our youth?  I try to not discuss things of that nature directly with youth, though sometimes they specifically ask me my thoughts.  I refer them to parents and suggest if they want to find their own position, that they do it by examining things from all sides. hopefully sources outside their normal interactions.  But, as it gets worse, the concept of Citizenship gets really fuzzy, and steering clear is hard to do.  So other than referring a youth back to family and so on, and suggest they read and maybe form an opinion of their own, how do we manage this.  I am almost 81, and I do not remember a time when the political environment was so muddled and frozen by blind opinion.  Do not know if there is a good answer, but just asking, as it is coming up more often, even from younger youth.  

[MattR]

@skeptic, with all due respect, Truth and Knowledge are not personal opinions. "Referring youth back to family" makes a lot of sense when it comes to religion, but not this fiasco. If the scout's parents are getting their news from X/TikTok/QAnon or any of a number of other worthless information sources then all you're doing is keeping the scouts confused. What makes for an informed opinion? A bit of skepticism is certainly good. So is humility. I'd say play the devil's advocate on any issue they're interested in and show them how to come to their own answers.

The bigger problem I see is that fear is freezing people from doing the right thing. They're afraid they're the only one that isn't so sure, so to be safe they're just going to go along. That's the problem. Democracy doesn't work when a lot of people are afraid to speak their mind. Your job is to teach them about truth and knowledge as well as bravery, humility, and kindness. Unfortunately this isn't just scouts. The best example is that Congress is frozen. Half of them think they can't do anything because they don't have the votes and the other half think they can't do anything because they're afraid they'll be voted out. I suspect the truth is that there are a fair number of people that voted for this administration but didn't vote for what's going on. Those people are the ones that hold all the power, if only they'd find the confidence to talk about their concerns. If only Congress would talk to them then, who knows, Congress might become a third co-equal branch of the government. Novel idea, no?

For all the others, a bunch are getting what they voted for and I have no sympathy for what's happening to them. For those that didn't vote for this administration it's time to play the cards that were dealt.

You say you don't remember a time when things were this "muddled and frozen by blind opinion?" Sure you do. You grew up in one such period. Civil rights. Vietnam. A lot of people were really sure about things until they started asking questions. Even then, the complexity of what was going on was much more than people realized. How many decades did it take to quit blaming vets? Anyone that thinks history is simple is not paying attention.

I think we shouldn't whitewash our history.  Just like scouts growing from making mistakes and learning from them so does society.

[skeptic]

3 hours ago, MattR said:

@skeptic, with all due respect, Truth and Knowledge are not personal opinions. "Referring youth back to family" makes a lot of sense when it comes to religion, but not this fiasco. If the scout's parents are getting their news from X/TikTok/QAnon or any of a number of other worthless information sources then all you're doing is keeping the scouts confused. What makes for an informed opinion? A bit of skepticism is certainly good. So is humility. I'd say play the devil's advocate on any issue they're interested in and show them how to come to their own answers.

The bigger problem I see is that fear is freezing people from doing the right thing. They're afraid they're the only one that isn't so sure, so to be safe they're just going to go along. That's the problem. Democracy doesn't work when a lot of people are afraid to speak their mind. Your job is to teach them about truth and knowledge as well as bravery, humility, and kindness. Unfortunately this isn't just scouts. The best example is that Congress is frozen. Half of them think they can't do anything because they don't have the votes and the other half think they can't do anything because they're afraid they'll be voted out. I suspect the truth is that there are a fair number of people that voted for this administration but didn't vote for what's going on. Those people are the ones that hold all the power, if only they'd find the confidence to talk about their concerns. If only Congress would talk to them then, who knows, Congress might become a third co-equal branch of the government. Novel idea, no?

For all the others, a bunch are getting what they voted for and I have no sympathy for what's happening to them. For those that didn't vote for this administration it's time to play the cards that were dealt.

You say you don't remember a time when things were this "muddled and frozen by blind opinion?" Sure you do. You grew up in one such period. Civil rights. Vietnam. A lot of people were really sure about things until they started asking questions. Even then, the complexity of what was going on was much more than people realized. How many decades did it take to quit blaming vets? Anyone that thinks history is simple is not paying attention.

I think we shouldn't whitewash our history.  Just like scouts growi

3 hours ago, MattR said:

@skeptic, with all due respect, Truth and Knowledge are not personal opinions. "Referring youth back to family" makes a lot of sense when it comes to religion, but not this fiasco. If the scout's parents are getting their news from X/TikTok/QAnon or any of a number of other worthless information sources then all you're doing is keeping the scouts confused. What makes for an informed opinion? A bit of skepticism is certainly good. So is humility. I'd say play the devil's advocate on any issue they're interested in and show them how to come to their own answers.

The bigger problem I see is that fear is freezing people from doing the right thing. They're afraid they're the only one that isn't so sure, so to be safe they're just going to go along. That's the problem. Democracy doesn't work when a lot of people are afraid to speak their mind. Your job is to teach them about truth and knowledge as well as bravery, humility, and kindness. Unfortunately this isn't just scouts. The best example is that Congress is frozen. Half of them think they can't do anything because they don't have the votes and the other half think they can't do anything because they're afraid they'll be voted out. I suspect the truth is that there are a fair number of people that voted for this administration but didn't vote for what's going on. Those people are the ones that hold all the power, if only they'd find the confidence to talk about their concerns. If only Congress would talk to them then, who knows, Congress might become a third co-equal branch of the government. Novel idea, no?

For all the others, a bunch are getting what they voted for and I have no sympathy for what's happening to them. For those that didn't vote for this administration it's time to play the cards that were dealt.

You say you don't remember a time when things were this "muddled and frozen by blind opinion?" Sure you do. You grew up in one such period. Civil rights. Vietnam. A lot of people were really sure about things until they started asking questions. Even then, the complexity of what was going on was much more than people realized. How many decades did it take to quit blaming vets? Anyone that thinks history is simple is not paying attention.

I think we shouldn't whitewash our history.  Just like scouts growing from making mistakes and learning from them so does society.

ng from making mistakes and learning from them so does society.

On 2/19/2025 at 10:53 AM, skeptic said:

Simply, how do we work around the huge issues that our political circus now presents, especially without being accused of trying to force personal opinion on our youth?  I try to not discuss things of that nature directly with youth, though sometimes they specifically ask me my thoughts.  I refer them to parents and suggest if they want to find their own position, that they do it by examining things from all sides. hopefully sources outside their normal interactions.  But, as it gets worse, the concept of Citizenship gets really fuzzy, and steering clear is hard to do.  So other than referring a youth back to family and so on, and suggest they read and maybe form an opinion of their own, how do we manage this.  I am almost 81, and I do not remember a time when the political environment was so muddled and frozen by blind opinion.  Do not know if there is a good answer, but just asking, as it is coming up more often, even from younger youth.  

This post is a serious question that is challenging me, and I suspect may challenge others as well.  How do we live the Spirit of Scouting when we live in a very challenging political environment that can easily grate against the basic precepts of Scouting?  

 

[skeptic]

Just now, skeptic said:

This post is a serious question that is challenging me, and I suspect may challenge others as well.  How do we live the Spirit of Scouting when we live in a very challenging political environment that can easily grate against the basic precepts of Scouting?  

 

Thanks Matt.  You are right in noting the comparison between now and my era.  I was in Germany for three years during the worst of Vietnam, and I heard some really scary stuff from guys rotating in, as well as some truly emotionally destructive attitudes.  Then when I went home and went back to college on the GI Bill, I encountered the on campus issues and also traveling in  uniform was often a toss up as to what  type of reception we might get.  I rotate back in December of 68 and entered ASU the fall of 69.  Here is a verse I wrote about that time.  It shows my confusion, as I honestly had already began to see much of the truth few of us wanted to accept, but also my realization that the problem was beyond me to solve.  

 

Safe

 

Diana Ross’ plaintive

“Baby, Baby”, vibrates

from 1965.

Chanute Air Force Base,

Rantoul, Illinois.

Late summer cumulus

mount over the plains

as Vietnam becomes

more than a remote question

of geographic trivia.

Elvis and John still live;

so do “Bobby” and “Martin”.

I walk though the town

streets in fall,

shuffling through leaves,

watching grey plumed squirrels,

marveling at the crispness of air

and colors.

Desert autumn is dryer,

more subtle.

 

Soon Germany is my place,

its myriad distractions,

mini-skirts in London,

streetwalkers in Paris,

Swiss Alps and cows,

skiing in Garmisch,

and ever present beer.

 

But I’ll not be able to forget

my true mission.

 

F-105’s roar,

Phantoms scream,

NATO planes attack daily

the bombing range in Siegenburg

where Hitler once dropped real ones.

Letters arrive from home,

news of high school friends

injured or killed in the Far East.

Here, “Six Day War” evacuees arrive,

Czechs flee Russian tanks,

and “rotatees” from ‘Nam are posted,

tormented

by fear,

guilt,

and hate.

 

90’s

Finished 8-12-04

 

     I went to HS in Twentyine Palms and of course I had many friends whos families were Marines.  I lost at least one classmate, and know of others badly damaged both physically and emotionally.  Today, some still live that era, but many say that they now understand the protests more, and while not forgiving the over the top nastiness much of the time, aimed at those least responsible, they at least get it a little.  And I never was comfortable on campus during marches, as I was still in reserves, though no duty due to time in active duty.  I have thought a lot about these things over the years, and I wish I could somehow understand better why so many are so dogmatic and unwilling to see others as simply people.  Few of my peers are truly comfortable with that time, and a few are in serious inner struggles now that they have kids and grandkids and see similar stuff.  

     That is why I want to share with the youth, but I also do not want to overstep or cause issues that affect them as people and as Scouting youth.  Th blinders are a problem, but I do not know if those that wear them do so because the already recognize the problems and do not want reminders, or if they simply do not want to confronted with so much that is obvious.   Well, since I have decided to be the first centenarian in my family, I have some time to work on it.  

Meanwhile, good Scouting.  And may we all find a way to Do Our Best to live the Spirit.

[acco40]

We could start by screening out certain influences that the BSA should not give a platform too.  Are these appropriate comments to give to 40,000 BSA youth?

“Boy, you have a lot of people here. The press will say it’s about 200 people. It looks like about 45,000 people. You set a record today. You set a record.”

“I said, ‘Who the hell wants to speak about politics when I’m in front of the Boy Scouts?’ Right?”

“Today, I said we ought to change it from the word ‘swamp’ to the word ‘cesspool’ or, perhaps, to the word ‘sewer.’”

“Many of my top advisers in the White House were Scouts. Ten members of my Cabinet were Scouts. Can you believe that? Ten.”

“Some of you here tonight might even have camped out in this yard when Mike was the governor of Indiana, but the scouting was very, very important.”

“We’re doing a lot with energy.”

“He better get them. Oh, he better – otherwise, I’ll say, ‘Tom, you’re fired.’ I’ll get somebody.”

“As the Scout Law says: ‘A Scout is trustworthy, loyal’ – we could use some more loyalty, I will tell you that.”

“I’m waving to people back there so small I can’t even see them. Man, this is a lot of people.”

“By the way, what do you think the chances are that this incredible, massive crowd, record-setting is going to be shown on television tonight? One percent or zero?”

“By the way, just a question, did President Obama ever come to a jamboree?”

“I’ll tell you a story that’s very interesting for me when I was young. There was a man named William Levitt – Levittowns, you have some here, you have some in different states.”

“Oh, you’re Boy Scouts, but you know life. You know life. So – look at you.”

“He so badly wanted it, he got bored with this life of yachts and sailing and all of the things he did in the south of France and other places.”

“And in the end he failed, and he failed badly. Lost all of his money.”

“I saw him at a cocktail party, and it was very sad because the hottest people in New York were at this party.”

“You have to know whether or not you continue to have the momentum, and if you don’t have it, that’s OK. Because you’re going to go on and you’re going to learn and you’re going to do things that are great.”

“I have to tell you our economy is doing great.”

“Do we remember that date? Was that a beautiful date? What a date.”

“But do you remember that incredible night with the maps and the Republicans are red and the Democrats are blue, and that map was so red, it was unbelievable, and they didn’t know what to say?”

“And you know we have a tremendous disadvantage in the Electoral College – popular vote is much easier.”

“I went to Maine four times because it’s one vote, and we won. But we won – one vote. I went there because I kept hearing we’re at 269.”

“But then Wisconsin came in. Many, many years – Michigan came in.”

“Wisconsin hadn’t been won in many, many years by a Republican. But we go to Wisconsin, and we had tremendous crowds. And I’d leave these massive crowds. I’d say, ‘Why are we going to lose this state?’”

“So I have to tell you what we did, in all fairness, is an unbelievable tribute to you and all of the other millions and millions of people that came out and voted for Make America Great Again.”

“And by the way, under the Trump administration, you’ll be saying ‘Merry Christmas’ again when you go shopping. Believe me. ‘Merry Christmas.’”

“They’ve been downplaying that little, beautiful phrase. You’re going to be saying ‘Merry Christmas’ again, folks.”

“I promise you that you will live scouting’s adventure every single day of your life, and you will win, win, win and help people in doing so.”

“I’ve known so many great people.”

[qwazse]

@acco40 short answer: yes. Half of that audience became  of voting age, and the majority likely voted in favor of the challenger. The incumbent did not present at the ‘23 Jambo. A smaller portion of the audience became of voting age, and the majority of those voted for the challenger.

Regardless, “sheltering” scouts from our nation’s leaders (and what thoughtful opinions we may have of them) is an immoral capitulation to memes.

 

[skeptic]

So, we should find ways to expose them without trying to influence them seems the answer.  How to do that is not clear, as I have been accused of being "woke" and also disrespectful when I have pointed out what seems to me to be blatant bending of our ruling documents and poor examples being portrayed by elected people.  I will not call them leaders, though I guess that too could be considered disrespectful.  A very fine line and hard to toe.