How Do You Guide Scouts in Choosing Patrols?

[swilliams]

So... I'm taking over the SM position for our Troop.  I feel like we're not horrible at the patrol method, but that we have a fair way to go.  I'm completing training as fast as I can, and reading as much as I have time for, but there are a few things that are popping up and this group of Scouters is one of the best resources I've found - either for answers or pointing to where answers can be found - so here I am with my questions.

We've experienced a lot of growth this year in our Troop, with scouts joining throughout the year.  As a result, our Patrols are kind of a mish-mash, with some scouts not being formally added to a patrol or even knowing if they're in a Patrol.  We have five who are not yet Scout rank, but two of the five only need to whip and fuse the rope, do their Child Protection, and SM conference, so even among them, there isn't a clear indication that they should be, or want to be, in a Patrol together.  Previously our Patrols have been done by grade, but not sure that's the best answer.  The current SPL inherited the Patrols the way they're set up now, so he doesn't have a lot of insight.  I've not yet met with the incoming SPL.  We need to elect our incoming Patrol Leaders, but will need to set the Patrols first.

Any guidance from you for me to pass along would be SO very appreciated.

[MattR]

@swilliams, I'm going to make this quick.

Scouting works when younger scouts look up to older scouts. Scouting also happens in the patrol. So don't do patrols by grade. Also, scouts want to be with their friends. These 3 items create a difficult puzzle to solve.

Some older scouts are natural at working with younger scouts and many are afraid of doing it. Most friendships are around age. You don't understand the scout dynamics as well as the scouts do.

That's where the art of being the SM comes in. Another way of saying that is you flail around trying to coach your older scouts to do what they should be doing.

I gave up on selecting patrols, let the scouts figure it out but make sure patrols are balanced.

Good luck.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

In all of my experience in Scouting, every single time adults interfere with the Patrol process, they screw things up. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. (major emphasis).

There is a reason why Traditional Patrols, aka Mixed Aged Patrol are still around,and begrudgingly mentioned in BSA literature on occasion, 35 years after national wanted aged based patrols to be the new norm: THEY WORK! (again major emphasis)

Aged based patrols have so many problems, especially NSPs. I was part of the pilot program, and it failed miserably in my troop. Imagine my surprise when I discover that aged based patrols were the new way of creating patrols.

@MattR said it best:

10 hours ago, MattR said:

, let the scouts figure it out

 

[fred8033]

Though I always differ on "age based" and "traditional patrols" and NSPs, I 100% agree on a few key points.

• 100% agree ... Adults "screw things up.  EVERY.  SINGLE.  TIME.".  
• Let the scouts decide ... with very minimal guidance ... and try to balance patrols (somewhat with many caveats).  
  • Even this point...  I've often seen adults saying the scout's are deciding, but then I watch and the adults subvert the scout's independent decision making.  
• Scouts want to be with their friends.  The best patrols are where the patrol are (or become) friends and want to spend time together.  ... Since the scouts plan, camp, cook, eat, sleep, game, and go to activities together, it really helps if the scouts naturally want to spend time together.  
  • IMHO, patrols start to fail when scout ditch their patrol to spend time with their friends in another patrol.  Perhaps the scout should be in the other patrol then?  

IMHO, new scout patrols work well when 10+ join at the same time and NSPs are used to rapidly get scouts up to speed.  But, there is no reason to keep those scouts in that patrol long term.  

Let the scout's decide.  

[swilliams]

I truly understand that they need to make the decisions.  (The very first thing I've done is to arrange a day of training for the scouts who will have leadership roles so that they understand what their responsibilities are and will have the information needed to be independent of the adults.)  But the incoming SPL has indicated that he needs help. 

On 12/19/2024 at 12:40 AM, MattR said:

@swilliams, I'm going to make this quick.

Scouting works when younger scouts look up to older scouts. Scouting also happens in the patrol. So don't do patrols by grade. Also, scouts want to be with their friends. These 3 items create a difficult puzzle to solve.

Some older scouts are natural at working with younger scouts and many are afraid of doing it. Most friendships are around age. You don't understand the scout dynamics as well as the scouts do.

That's where the art of being the SM comes in. Another way of saying that is you flail around trying to coach your older scouts to do what they should be doing.

I gave up on selecting patrols, let the scouts figure it out but make sure patrols are balanced.

Good luck.

 

This is helpful.  How do they figure it out, I guess is my question at this point.  I can, and will, let the SPL know the scouts need to self-select (for lack of a better term), but how does he begin?  The mechanics of it?  Ask them to form up during the next Troop meeting? Email them?  A lot do group-chat, but not all have phones.  Do they figure it out over the course of a few weeks as they naturally form groups?

Am I being too impatient in wanting to sort out the Patrols soon, so that we start off with these new expectations in place?  One of my biggest fears (outside of the sheer terror of being a SM in the first place) is that things stay the same because that's how the last SM did it.  For example, I'd to see the scouts cooking in patrols on our next campout, which is January 31st, instead of cooking as a Troop.

[DuctTape]

1 hour ago, swilliams said:

I truly understand that they need to make the decisions.  (The very first thing I've done is to arrange a day of training for the scouts who will have leadership roles so that they understand what their responsibilities are and will have the information needed to be independent of the adults.)  But the incoming SPL has indicated that he needs help. 

This is helpful.  How do they figure it out, I guess is my question at this point.  I can, and will, let the SPL know the scouts need to self-select (for lack of a better term), but how does he begin?  The mechanics of it?  Ask them to form up during the next Troop meeting? Email them?  A lot do group-chat, but not all have phones.  Do they figure it out over the course of a few weeks as they naturally form groups?

Am I being too impatient in wanting to sort out the Patrols soon, so that we start off with these new expectations in place?  One of my biggest fears (outside of the sheer terror of being a SM in the first place) is that things stay the same because that's how the last SM did it.  For example, I'd to see the scouts cooking in patrols on our next campout, which is January 31st, instead of cooking as a Troop.

I do not think you are too impatient. The forming of patrols is the first step. I would say give the SPL the goal of having the patrols by the end of the first meeting. Anyone not there can join a patrol when they do show up.

Suggest some games the scouts could play which will help them get to know each other differently. Like 4-corners games*. Or other type of grouping style games. 

After the games, SPL hands over the "create your patrol" challenge. Have SPL provide the purpose and minimal boundaries 1. Patrols of 6-8. 2. Patrols will be the teams for games. 3. Patrols will be the group you camp, cook and hike with. Etc...

The SPL can use the corners as a way to "gather your patrol".

If the the SPL (or the scouts) are having difficulty, start with pairs. Choose a buddy to be with in a patrol. Then the buddys find another pair to join up with. Before they "commit" encourage them to talk about why they want to be together. Common interests? Common goals? Etc... (this goes back to the games played earlier).  After a 4-some is created, they can join up with another 4-some, or a pair which did not join another pair yet. No real rules, the idea is to break down the "create a group of 6-8" into a simpler first step.

The SPL and scouts will probably surprise you with how quickly they can self-group. 

 

*4-corners. Scouts gather in center of room. SPL says the category and points to the different corners with "answers". Then scouts run to the corner of their choice. Ex. SPL says "Category is breakfast" points to each corner and says "bacon, sausage, ham, no-meat" ... "and go".  SPL continues with another category...

 

[Tron]

I have been a leader in troops that have traditional patrols, age based, and the age based also had a new scout patrol. My observation is that hands down age based is better. There is that 8th-9th grade teenage boy thing where the 5th-6th graders drive them insane because the 8th-9th are trying to be so much more mature. There is also the friendship and sibling thing; some scouts regardless of age are friends, some siblings want to be together, some siblings want to be as far away from their brothers as possible. I think the answer might be somewhere in between; something like the SM provides a framework, like "hey we have 36 scouts and I want to see 6 patrols of 6, keep tenting and buddy system age requirements in mind, figure it out scouts+, and then the scouts take it from there. A couple of oddities that I have seen is that I have seen older scouts ask to go back down to the NSP because of younger friends from clubs/sports/relatives; I have seen younger scouts that present much more mature than their age ask to get assigned to an older aged patrol because their personalities were more aligned with the older scouts. The biggest mistakes I have ever seen revolved around either the SM, the SPL, or both making decisions in absence of input from the scouts themselves; that patrol design always leads to some sort of s-show. I have seen parents who's kids get split between multiple patrols that do patrol level stuff lose their minds at having to figure out how to get their scouts to 2 different places at the same time for patrol functions (when a troop starts to function a higher level and the patrols start functioning at the highest level it adds complexity and independence that you should have the foresight to plan for). 

I think the answer is a mix of how many scouts you have, aligning them to the best possible patrol size, aligning personalities, following the rules, and making sure that everyone's voice is heard. Start with the scouts, make as few adjustments as possible; justify those adjustments when the new troop structure is presented. 

[Eagledad]

I’m am a mixed age patrol guy. I’ve tried them all and the fastest scout growth occurs in patrols with older aged and experienced mentor role models. But, building patrols is not easy. It takes experience. I agree to a point that the scouts have to be involved. But, if the adults (role model, mentors) struggle, the scouts certainly will. Don’t throw them in dark without some kind of guidance and plan.

Work as a team with everyone understanding the goal as well as the challenges. Make the successes and failures a team responsibility so that both scouts and adults work the problem together. I promise the scouts take these things to heart and will work to fix challenges the next time. They don’t like it any more than adults. And you will be amazed how seriously they do these things as the troop learns and grows when they know that the adults have their back.

This subject is an example that scouting is hard and the more the adults and scouts work as a team, the more confident everyone feels trying new ideas to improve the experience. Scouting is a safe place because failure is an opportunity to grow. That goes as much for the adults as it does for the scouts. 

Another deep discussion is news scouts and how to get them merged in the troop. But, that is a different subject for another day.

Merry Christmas everyone. 

Barry 

[swilliams]

Thanks everyone.  In addition to the above advice, I picked up copies of the SPL handbook and the PL handbook and plan on looking through them before handing them over.  One thing I have going for me is that I've been a track and cross-country coach for a few years now.  (Some of the scouts I've coached previously, and one caused my eyes to wet a little when he told me he was hoping I would be the next SM and it was a wish granted.  This kid...)  Hopefully some of that experience transfers.  It's at least similar in that I can't run for them - only encourage them when it gets hard and celebrate the wins and milestones with them.  I'm signing up for Wood Badge, but that doesn't start until April 4th. 

Now I have to focus on prodding younger son to decide whether he's going to complete the MBs he needs to rank up, or whether he's done.  He's my lazy one.  Smart as a whip, but so hard to get him to do anything.  I think he wants to make Eagle like his older brother, but when push comes to shove he's reluctant to put in the work.   Same thing with deciding whether he'll retake the SAT after doing some test prep, or not.  I'd be delighted had I gotten his score, but he's not thrilled with the score, and I know he's capable of more.  In many ways, dealing with scouts who aren't family is easier.  😂

[DuctTape]

Pick up a copy of the PL Handbook from the 1950s for ideas of Patrol Activities, games, etc... Also a 1940s Fieldbook, it is organized to be basically a manual of patrol activities. These will be a good resource for you if the SPL asks for ideas of "how to..."

[Eagledad]

On 12/23/2024 at 1:46 AM, DuctTape said:

Pick up a copy of the PL Handbook from the 1950s for ideas of Patrol Activities, games, etc... Also a 1940s Fieldbook, it is organized to be basically a manual of patrol activities. These will be a good resource for you if the SPL asks for ideas of "how to..."

Any SPL handbook works, too. In fact, I required all the SMs in my Scoutmaster Specific class to have one to use with the PLC for coordinating expectations. A team should work from the same book. Think of it as a condensed version of an SM Handbook.

Barry