quality, commissioners, and more, oh my

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

However, I believe they would have been fine if they had been willing to delegate skills they lacked to others.

As you point out, many now have no outdoors/Scouting experience... so to whom are they to delegate?

[Eagledad]

10 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

As you point out, many now have no outdoors/Scouting experience... so to whom are they to delegate?

Yes, my delegating comment was for the program 25 or 30 years ago when there were still many experienced Scouters. My point about the adults in today's scouts program is a different situation. I'm pretty creative when looking for solutions, but this one is a challenge.

The program now, whatever it's called (part of the problem), needs big changes in identity and training.

Barry

[Jameson76]

13 hours ago, fred8033 said:

The program would do better if it focused more on getting the scouts outside and being active.  Worry less about leadership and character.  Instead, focus on being active.  Then, leadership and character comes as a result of being active.

And there in lies the problem.  Get out and do.  Way to much focus on classroom merit badges, class instruction, checking boxes, adult leaders preventing experiential learning.  How many times have we seen discussions on how to game the system so a Scout can get 20 nights camping?  The goal should be to go out and do things, not just meet a metric.  20 nights should be simple to attain, and the Scout will learn volumes along the way.

We were looking at what an AOL needs to do in order to earn arrow of light now, apparently camp with a BSA troop is no longer a thing, visit yes, but they can camp with their patrol. But, looking at the "Adventures" the first multiple pages is about safety considerations;

• food allergies
• anaphylaxis and epi-pens,
• behavior around campfires,
• etc etc etc. 

No doubt all good things, but this "safety moment" (and it's more than a moment) is front and center for every Adventure.  

Safety is important, but that cannot be our reason for being.  To a parent new to the program, is this the right "Go to Market" thinking?  Then they move into a BSA Troop, and "GASP!!!", the youth do stuff on their own!!.

Scouts is OUTSIDE and doing stuff.  The leadership training should be a less formal item and more something they experience and grow from.  They will screw up, we as adult leaders can assist in making the course correction. 

The simplicity of the Troop program is that a 12 year old whom ignores advice and input and gets wet when their tent leaks or sleeps cold when they did not bring the recommended gear LEARNS A LESSON from THEIR actions.  They hopefully realize they need to do better.  Later, maybe as they go off to college or first job, they can recall that all advice is not bad.  They can help themselves be better.

[BetterWithCheddar]

On 11/16/2024 at 7:24 PM, Eagledad said:

BUT, to be fair, most bad leaders are parents with average skills. The Cub program is over burdened and overly complicated for parents with average skills. The training and professional support doesn’t supplement these parents enough to bring their skills up to lead a quality program.

Respectfully, I feel like that enough parents with average skills could still put on a good program. The biggest problems occur when a small number of average leaders are over-burdened by a high number of drop-off parents and/or poorly behaved kids.

 

On 11/17/2024 at 1:03 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Somehow we need to cultivate a culture of the Pursuit of Excellence.

I would settle for a culture of Very Good. If you have enough leaders/parents willing to take kids outside or plan a fun unit meeting, there is a good chance that your program can be sustained.

[SSScout]

Is it "Good Enough" ?   Worksheets for Merit Badges....  Texting LOL,  LMAO,   letters not written, knots that don't hold,  "like",  "hacks" that have nothing to do with axes or hatchets or cheap taxis or lousy attorneys,,, 

Believe what I say despite what  you see,  "You mean I CAN make that decision?",   "What if everybody acted like that, eh?"   Well, I was only joking, I didn't really MEAN that, it's just a manner of speaking, it's what everybody says....  History is what we agree on, not what  we have proof of....  Oh, I'll never use that silly knot...  

"Oh, I have people to take care of that."   We can pay for that , no need to do it ourselves.   It's easier to use paper plates and plastic stuff.... 

Well, the other Merit Badge Counselor let me...    "Was THAT good enough?"   Can't we get an extension for my boy? He's only late by a few days.... 

I can't take off work for this, isn't there someone else that can lead this hike/meeting/training/show and sell?  What are we paying these dues for, anyway?   

I want my kid to be a Scout, it will get him a higher rating when he joins the military/applies for college/trains for the Olympics/fills out the application for (fill in the blank)....   

[Eagledad]

6 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Respectfully, I feel like that enough parents with average skills could still put on a good program. The biggest problems occur when a small number of average leaders are over-burdened by a high number of drop-off parents and/or poorly behaved kids.

 

I understand what you are saying, but my experience with adults is that less is more. Adults tend to hinder the scouts' growth in character because, by their nature, adults don't like youth making bad decisions. 

I'm not sure what you consider average skills. Are knots, lashings, and orienteering average skills you're speaking about?

Still, the troop program is designed so that scouts lead and manage their activities. That program doesn't require many adults. 

Of course, scouts have to continually grow to develop the skills for dealing with the responsibilities of running the program and their personal growth.

A mature program requires a minimum number of adults because the scouts are responsible for the program's activities and business, including training.

The challenge for units is having a resource pool of skilled experts to prevent stumping scout growth. 

Barry

[SiouxRanger]

6 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

I would settle for a culture of Very Good.

 

2 hours ago, SSScout said:

Is it "Good Enough" ? 

 

2 hours ago, SSScout said:

Oh, I'll never use that silly knot...

“A knot is never “nearly right”; it is either exactly right or it is hopelessly wrong, one or the other; there is nothing in between. This is not the impossibly high standard of the idealist, it is a mere fact for the realist to face.” – Clifford Ashley, author Ashley Book of Knots

[ParkMan]

In our district, we tend to see two kinds of units - larger units of 30+ scouts and smaller units of 15 or less scouts.

The larger packs and troops have a deeper adult team that is supporting a wider array of activities.  They routinely bring in 6 or more new scouts every year.  They're active in the OA, participate in camporee, their leaders often jump over and help with district wide trainings and events.

The smaller packs and troops have a small core team of leaders and don't recruit much.  They tend to hang on year to year, but they don't tend to see a lot of new members.  We rarely see them.

Packs need a lot of adults period - 2 adults per den of 6-8 cubs.  Another 4-8 adults providing pack level support - CC, CM, 2x Asst. CM, membership, treasurer, fundraising,  advancement chair, and so on.

Troops are a bit different.

From a working directly with the Scouts perspective, yes troops do need fewer ASMs that help week to week.  But they need a supporting group of ASMs to attend weekend trips.  A monthly trip is a big ask for anyone and a supporting group of ASMs can really lighten that load.

Another area where adults help is troop operations - troops need even more adult operations support than packs.  Eagle projects, boards of review, merit badge, more fundraising, specialty skills, and so on.

I think the reason we see two general size groups is that units with good programs that recruit adults to help with operations tend to grow.  Units with good programs that don't recruit adults to help, end up with overburdened program leaders.

There are of course exceptions - some small units simply want to be small.  These units are not that common around here.

Edited November 20 by ParkMan
Clarity

[BetterWithCheddar]

17 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I understand what you are saying, but my experience with adults is that less is more. Adults tend to hinder the scouts' growth in character because, by their nature, adults don't like youth making bad decisions. 

Although I was a Boy Scout myself, my son is still in Cubs and my perspective these days is more from a Cub parent. We're fortunate to have a good group of parents running our Pack; however, there are many instances where I would go about things differently than other leaders (but settle for good enough).

I understand the calculus changes a bit with Scout Troops. For now, the work is getting done and the kids are having fun, getting outside, exercising, socializing, etc. I'm not going nitpick my fellow volunteers. I'm just thankful for the support we do receive.

[SSScout]

2 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

I understand the calculus changes a bit with Scout Troops. For now, the work is getting done and the kids are having fun, getting outside, exercising, socializing, etc. I'm not going nitpick my fellow volunteers. I'm just thankful for the support we do receive.

MiF KiS,,,,   arts and crafts,,,,   Make gifts for mom and dad (and brother/sister?  wadda concept).  The Scoutcraft stuff can be included, should be included as the Cubs grow into it, but the Make it Fun Keep it Simple has to be the watch word. Give the Cubs , no matter their  age, things they can accomplish and take pride in.  

Long time ago, I remember taking scraps of plywood, sanding them smooth, gluing pretty National Geographic photos to them and then CAREFULLY shellacking them . After they dried , we glued picture hanging hooks on the back, and PRESTO , Mom Day presents.  Along the way, we went hiking, learned about birds, visited the zoo and local firehouses.  I kept many of those kids as friends all thru high school and into  adulthood..  Were my parents involved? Absolutely. Were the other parents involved?  Absolutely.  Are things that changed, maybe three generations later?  Perhaps, but that's what we are here for, for the Societal History.  Today's parents must be made aware of the need to make their kids feel worthy and loved, so that THEY will want THEIR kids to feel worthy and loved.  

"The purpose of life is the planting of trees under whose shade one does not expect to sit". 

[DuctTape]

3 hours ago, SSScout said:

MiF KiS,,,,   arts and crafts,,,,   Make gifts for mom and dad (and brother/sister?  wadda concept).  The Scoutcraft stuff can be included, should be included as the Cubs grow into it, but the Make it Fun Keep it Simple has to be the watch word. Give the Cubs , no matter their  age, things they can accomplish and take pride in.  

Long time ago, I remember taking scraps of plywood, sanding them smooth, gluing pretty National Geographic photos to them and then CAREFULLY shellacking them . After they dried , we glued picture hanging hooks on the back, and PRESTO , Mom Day presents.  Along the way, we went hiking, learned about birds, visited the zoo and local firehouses.  I kept many of those kids as friends all thru high school and into  adulthood..  Were my parents involved? Absolutely. Were the other parents involved?  Absolutely.  Are things that changed, maybe three generations later?  Perhaps, but that's what we are here for, for the Societal History.  Today's parents must be made aware of the need to make their kids feel worthy and loved, so that THEY will want THEIR kids to feel worthy and loved.  

"The purpose of life is the planting of trees under whose shade one does not expect to sit". 

I remember that exact project as a kid. I recall my NatGeo picture was of a bird. Either a cardinal or blue jay. 99.9% of my cub memories were doing stuff like that with my den. The pack rarely met as a group except for the B&G dinner.

I agree KIS, the "S" is for "simple", and also "small". Dens meet and do stuff, get rid of pack meetings except for once/twice a year at most. Don't even start as a pack meeting, then split off. This rarely works well. 

 

[HashTagScouts]

Too few adults, and resulting drop in expectations resulting by BSA are not a good combo. Not that many years ago, it was a requirement that at least one adult leader on a Scouts BSA overnight outing had to be IOLS trained. That is no longer the case (why the requirement that there had to be someone BALOO trained for Cubs, and not any requirement in Scouts BSA, IDK). IOLS can be run poorly, but by and large in my experiences those who staffed the trainings I was involved in knew what we were doing (at least within a certain skillset- I was usually woods tools and knots myself), and were dedicated to make it as fun and informative as we could, while emphasizing the real objective was to demonstrate the Patrol Method. I'd love to see some reports from a national level on just how many units don't have someone who has been IOLS trained. If you have units rolling with adult leaders who don't truly get the program, it's a big ask to who may have been the only willing volunteer to be a Commissioner and expect that person is going to impart anything onto that adult. Most of the Commissioners, whether they be Council, District, or Unit that I have interacted with in the last decade+ have been retirement age, long since been active to a unit, and often have been pressed into it. The results often were mixed, especially in light of the later part. 

[Tron]

On 11/19/2024 at 8:35 AM, SSScout said:

Is it "Good Enough" ?   Worksheets for Merit Badges....  Texting LOL,  LMAO,   letters not written, knots that don't hold,  "like",  "hacks" that have nothing to do with axes or hatchets or cheap taxis or lousy attorneys,,, 

Believe what I say despite what  you see,  "You mean I CAN make that decision?",   "What if everybody acted like that, eh?"   Well, I was only joking, I didn't really MEAN that, it's just a manner of speaking, it's what everybody says....  History is what we agree on, not what  we have proof of....  Oh, I'll never use that silly knot...  

"Oh, I have people to take care of that."   We can pay for that , no need to do it ourselves.   It's easier to use paper plates and plastic stuff.... 

Well, the other Merit Badge Counselor let me...    "Was THAT good enough?"   Can't we get an extension for my boy? He's only late by a few days.... 

I can't take off work for this, isn't there someone else that can lead this hike/meeting/training/show and sell?  What are we paying these dues for, anyway?   

I want my kid to be a Scout, it will get him a higher rating when he joins the military/applies for college/trains for the Olympics/fills out the application for (fill in the blank)....   

Had some MBC situations this year myself; it's all about if you don't like that I run the MB program as designed find someone else. People hate it when I say it, but it's like running a Walmart, people hate it and complain but we'll see them shopping here again tomorrow. 

12 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

Too few adults, and resulting drop in expectations resulting by BSA are not a good combo. Not that many years ago, it was a requirement that at least one adult leader on a Scouts BSA overnight outing had to be IOLS trained. That is no longer the case (why the requirement that there had to be someone BALOO trained for Cubs, and not any requirement in Scouts BSA, IDK). IOLS can be run poorly, but by and large in my experiences those who staffed the trainings I was involved in knew what we were doing (at least within a certain skillset- I was usually woods tools and knots myself), and were dedicated to make it as fun and informative as we could, while emphasizing the real objective was to demonstrate the Patrol Method. I'd love to see some reports from a national level on just how many units don't have someone who has been IOLS trained. If you have units rolling with adult leaders who don't truly get the program, it's a big ask to who may have been the only willing volunteer to be a Commissioner and expect that person is going to impart anything onto that adult. Most of the Commissioners, whether they be Council, District, or Unit that I have interacted with in the last decade+ have been retirement age, long since been active to a unit, and often have been pressed into it. The results often were mixed, especially in light of the later part. 

Having IOLS is still required it's just buried a bit. The requirement is that you have to have at least 1 trained SM/ASM on every overnight outing. To be considered a trained SM/ASM you have to have IOLS. BTW hazardous weather is required to be trained now, it's been moved by national into DL/CM/ASM/SM training; can't wait to see people start to fall out of trained status when their hazardous weather expires in a year or two. 

[Eagle94-A1]

9 hours ago, Tron said:

Having IOLS is still required it's just buried a bit. The requirement is that you have to have at least 1 trained SM/ASM on every overnight outing. To be considered a trained SM/ASM you have to have IOLS. 

Can you show me how long that is a national requirement, because this is the first I am hearing about this.

Also does anyone know how to remove courses that My.Scouting.Org say I need to take, but have taken already, and taught, in a classroom setting?  Thankfully it says I am fully trained, but keeps showing online modules as if I need to do still.

[InquisitiveScouter]

29 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Can you show me how long that is a national requirement, because this is the first I am hearing about this.

Also does anyone know how to remove courses that My.Scouting.Org say I need to take, but have taken already, and taught, in a classroom setting?  Thankfully it says I am fully trained, but keeps showing online modules as if I need to do still.

IOLS is a Position Trained requirement. 

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Position-Trained-Requirements-July2024.pdf

And councils are supposed to be enforcing this within six months of being in a position.  But that varies by council.  See link below for PA Dutch Council, which puts it a 12 months.  Councils are supposed to be denying position renewal without training, but I have never heard of it actually being enforced.

http://padutchbsa.org/training/#:~:text=Pennsylvania Dutch Council Training Policies&text=Scouts BSA and Venturing Leaders,during the twelve month period.

For the training piece, for several positions, you have the option of doing either an in-class session, or the online modules to complete the required training.

For example, for the Scoutmaster role, you may complete EITHER S24, Scoutmaster Specific, OR all those course modules in the list in the first link above.

We actually ask our leaders to do both in-person sessions (when available) and online modules.  It's part of our Culture of Excellence 😜

You learn different things in either training medium.  And, when done well, the in-person/interactive stuff is so much better.