quality, commissioners, and more, oh my

[Eagle94-A1]

52 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

And councils are supposed to be enforcing this within six months of being in a position.  But that varies by council.  See link below for PA Dutch Council, which puts it a 12 months.  Councils are supposed to be denying position renewal without training, but I have never heard of it actually being enforced.

I guess mine is not enforcing it at all. I knew other councils had mandated training, heck neighboring council wanted you to have the training BEFORE ( emphasis) assuming the role. But was told National won't mandate training, except YPT.

 

53 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

For example, for the Scoutmaster role, you may complete EITHER S24, Scoutmaster Specific, OR all those course modules in the list in the first link above.

You would think that if you had S24 showing, all the online modules would not show up as "To Do's." Why whenever I teach a class, I add my name to the Training Report.

 

58 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

You learn different things in either training medium.  And, when done well, the in-person/interactive stuff is so much better.  

Personally prefer inperson training to online. The interactive, personal touch is much better than the monotone online stuff, even if interactive.

[InquisitiveScouter]

You, too, can be fully green 😜

There's always a gold nugget or two buried in there somewhere.  And probably a rotten apple (or two) as well.

 

COMPLETED: S11, SCO_800, Y01 - 100%

COMPLETED: S24 - 100%

COMPLETED: SCO_471, SCO_472, SCO_473, SCO_474, SCO_475, SCO_476, SCO_477, SCO_478, SCO_479, SCO_480, SCO_481, SCO_482, SCO_484, SCO_485, SCO_530 - 100%

[Tron]

10 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Can you show me how long that is a national requirement, because this is the first I am hearing about this.

Also does anyone know how to remove courses that My.Scouting.Org say I need to take, but have taken already, and taught, in a classroom setting?  Thankfully it says I am fully trained, but keeps showing online modules as if I need to do still.

Have this filled out and turned into your council registrar. 
https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/34169_forms_wb.pdf

[ParkMan]

On 11/20/2024 at 11:49 AM, HashTagScouts said:

If you have units rolling with adult leaders who don't truly get the program, it's a big ask to who may have been the only willing volunteer to be a Commissioner and expect that person is going to impart anything onto that adult. Most of the Commissioners, whether they be Council, District, or Unit that I have interacted with in the last decade+ have been retirement age, long since been active to a unit, and often have been pressed into it. The results often were mixed, especially in light of the later part. 

I'd welcome thoughts on what a district/council could meaningfully do to break this cycle.  

Like many, I've been in Scouting long enough to see the same pattern.  I can't help but feel I'm watching the same cycle over and over again.  Yes, the answer is "we just need to recruit some experienced commissioners..."  Anyone have success doing that?

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I'd welcome thoughts on what a district/council could meaningfully do to break this cycle.  

Like many, I've been in Scouting long enough to see the same pattern.  I can't help but feel I'm watching the same cycle over and over again.  Yes, the answer is "we just need to recruit some experienced commissioners..."  Anyone have success doing that?

 

No... haven't seen a "successful" or robust Commissioner program.

I have always believed you need to incentivize the behavior you want...

Other than the parents having their children earn Eagle Scout, what incentives are there for adults to volunteer in any capacity?

Altruism lasts but for a season.  Volunteers need to feel appreciated, valued, and recognized.  And when an organization invests in their training and development, volunteers grow even more dedicated.

Do you feel appreciated in your council? (Personally, no.)

Are you recognized for the value you add to the organization at all levels? (No)

Does your council/district/unit invest in your training? (Unit yes... unit pays for required position training, and will pay 50% of training that contributes to JTE metrics. District and council, no.)

Has someone mentored you in a path of development as a Scouter? (No)

When you learn of the salaries of higher ups in BSA, does it affect your willingness to volunteer or donate?

https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/how-much-income-puts-you-top-1-5-10/

Our council exec's individual compensation package is $270K per year.  Well into the top 5% for households in our area (but not nationwide.).  When most parents learn this, they are absolutely shocked.  Yeah, they'll volunteer to help their kid's unit, but nothing past that...  especially when they see little to no value added from council to their Troop program/success.

[mrjohns2]

Our district has a pretty good commissioner corps. We are always short 2-4 unit commissioners and 1-2 roundtable commissioners. But we do have groups of both and we do get the job done. We seem to do a good job recognizing those with plaques and knots as appropriate. Our district is one of the top in the council, though. With 7 or 8 districts, ours sold 45%  of the popcorn in the council. 2 of the last 3 council commissioners came from our district and 2 of the last 3 council presidents came from our district. 

[fred8033]

26 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Our district has a pretty good commissioner corps. We are always short 2-4 unit commissioners and 1-2 roundtable commissioners. But we do have groups of both and we do get the job done. We seem to do a good job recognizing those with plaques and knots as appropriate. Our district is one of the top in the council, though. With 7 or 8 districts, ours sold 45%  of the popcorn in the council. 2 of the last 3 council commissioners came from our district and 2 of the last 3 council presidents came from our district. 

To clarify ... I've seen good district commissioners, roundtable commissioners and such.  My criticism is very specific aimed at the "unit commissioners".  I believe the concept of "unit commissioner" is fundamentally flawed. 

[Tron]

16 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

No... haven't seen a "successful" or robust Commissioner program.

I have always believed you need to incentivize the behavior you want...

Other than the parents having their children earn Eagle Scout, what incentives are there for adults to volunteer in any capacity?

Altruism lasts but for a season.  Volunteers need to feel appreciated, valued, and recognized.  And when an organization invests in their training and development, volunteers grow even more dedicated.

Do you feel appreciated in your council? (Personally, no.)

Are you recognized for the value you add to the organization at all levels? (No)

Does your council/district/unit invest in your training? (Unit yes... unit pays for required position training, and will pay 50% of training that contributes to JTE metrics. District and council, no.)

Has someone mentored you in a path of development as a Scouter? (No)

When you learn of the salaries of higher ups in BSA, does it affect your willingness to volunteer or donate?

https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/how-much-income-puts-you-top-1-5-10/

Our council exec's individual compensation package is $270K per year.  Well into the top 5% for households in our area (but not nationwide.).  When most parents learn this, they are absolutely shocked.  Yeah, they'll volunteer to help their kid's unit, but nothing past that...  especially when they see little to no value added from council to their Troop program/success.

I get what you're saying here; that ties into constantly recruiting. DE's are constantly pushing recruitment of scouts for units but they never seem to push constantly recruiting district committee/commissioner corp. 

[mrjohns2]

On 12/2/2024 at 2:09 PM, fred8033 said:

My criticism is very specific aimed at the "unit commissioners".  I believe the concept of "unit commissioner" is fundamentally flawed. 

Even though our system is healthy most of the time, it can break for a time when one commissioner drops out. With each having 2-4 units, if one leaves (or 2), there is a big gap. 

[ParkMan]

On 12/2/2024 at 7:33 PM, Tron said:

I get what you're saying here; that ties into constantly recruiting. DE's are constantly pushing recruitment of scouts for units but they never seem to push constantly recruiting district committee/commissioner corp. 

Thanks all for the thoughts and comments - they are greatly appreciated.

I'm wondering if I'm seeing something of a trend here.  People don't feel that councils are investing in Commissioners and other district volunteers.  As a result, People are not motivated to volunteer and so you end up with a small group of "the faithful" who will volunteer.

We think there could be more success if:

- It was clear councils appreciated and recognized these district level vounteers.

- councils invested in training and development of these district level volunteers.

- council professionals placed a priority on recruiting district level volunteers.

It sounds like some districts may be doing an OK job at this and as such some districts are fielding more complete and happy teams.

Does this feel like something of the right direction?  

 

 

 

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

10 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Thanks all for the thoughts and comments - they are greatly appreciated.

I'm wondering if I'm seeing something of a trend here.  People don't feel that councils are investing in Commissioners and other district volunteers.  As a result, People are not motivated to volunteer and so you end up with a small group of "the faithful" who will volunteer.

We think there could be more success if:

- It was clear councils appreciated and recognized these district level vounteers.

- councils invested in training and development of these district level volunteers.

- council professionals placed a priority on recruiting district level volunteers.

It sounds like some districts may be doing an OK job at this and as such some districts are fielding more complete and happy teams.

Does this feel like something of the right direction?  

 

 

 

 

A good start!

Now, how do we make the Unit Commissioner role effective?

If you look at the job description...

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/NCST-Unit-Commissioner-Job-Description.pdf

...it assumes some key conditions - that Commissioners integrate into the unit rhythms, and that units can access the Commissioner's Assessment and will follow the guidance of the Unit Commissioner.  

The many Unit Commissioners I have talked with express frustration over the following things:

1.  The unit leadership views them as an outsider, with bad intent. Word on the street is, you never see a Commissioner unless there is a problem in the unit.  That is, they are harbingers of an illness in the unit.  This is probably a result of #2...

2.  Commissioners wear more hats than that of Unit Commissioner, and this detracts from their being able to spend the time it takes to build solid relationships so that a unit will listen to what you have to offer.  IMO, Commissioners should be attending unit meetings about monthly, and a unit outing about every quarter... (no, they don't have to camp out overnight, but they should have that opportunity!!  Cannot do this under current policy unless they are on the unit roster.  And, although I cannot find this in writing at the moment, I believe Commissioners cannot be members of units they are assigned to,.  Catch-22.)  (No, they should not be counted as adult leadership for supervision requirements.)

3.  No one knows who their unit commissioner is.  Where can I find this info?  You should be able to see it in your unit info on my.scouting.  Good luck with that.  And on that line of thinking, where is my Commissioner's Unit Assessment?  The succession of Unit Leaders should be able to readily access these for several years.  Good luck with that, too 😜  Bottom line: lack of transparency does not engender trust.

4.  There is a culture of "we're gonna do it our way" I have seen in many units.  This first comes from an ignorance of BSA policy.  Then, once finding out they are doing something not in accordance with BSA policy, an arrogance of maintaining that posture because "that's the way we have always done it, so that's the way we are gonna continue."   What carrots does a Commissioner have to offer a unit?  And what sticks? That is, when the Commissioner (tactfully) informs the unit they are doing something awry, there is no repercussion unless it is a YPT violation (see #1.)  Here's an example... a Commissioner visits an Eagle Project in progress to lend a hand and build relationships with the unit.  He sees a youth using a battery powered skill saw (and with no hearing or eye protection).  https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-028.pdf  When the Commissioner discreetly points this out to the unit leaders on hand, the unit leaders take no action to inform the Eagle candidate running the show, nor do they take any other action to correct the situation.  Should the Commissioner employ a "stick" here and tell the unit leader he will report the matter to the Chartered Organization Rep, or the District Executive, or the Scout Executive?  Should the Commissioner note this in a Unit Assessment Report? Should he file a "Near Miss Report"???   https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-017_fillable.pdf  See how we are going down the road of point #1??  (BTW, yes, this has happened, and nothing came of it, except the Commissioner was re-assigned to a different unit at his request.  Do you think that UC felt supported by the DE or council leadership??)

Overall, I find the attitude of self-policing, improvement, and a desire to know the right way to do things and to do it generally lacking in most adult leaders.  Is a UC gonna be the one to change that culture in a unit?

 

 

[Tron]

13 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Thanks all for the thoughts and comments - they are greatly appreciated.

I'm wondering if I'm seeing something of a trend here.  People don't feel that councils are investing in Commissioners and other district volunteers.  As a result, People are not motivated to volunteer and so you end up with a small group of "the faithful" who will volunteer.

We think there could be more success if:

- It was clear councils appreciated and recognized these district level vounteers.

- councils invested in training and development of these district level volunteers.

- council professionals placed a priority on recruiting district level volunteers.

It sounds like some districts may be doing an OK job at this and as such some districts are fielding more complete and happy teams.

Does this feel like something of the right direction?  

 

 

 

 

I think the big one here is actively recruiting district level volunteers. The average volunteer obligation is 2-3 years; BSA has a policy statement that a volunteer obligation is 1 year (membership renewal to membership renewal). If the DE is not actively recruiting district members it just falls apart and then the DE ends up doing everything, and doesn't have time to recruit district members. Every subcommittee at the district level should have 7-9 members. I think off the top of my head the advancement committee is literally dictated in the GTA to have 12 members; my entire district committee is 8 (including the paid members). How does anyone run an affective district without opening the door and inviting in people to help? Is everyone in BSA a 90 year old bachelor fighting to open a pickle jar, too proud to ask for help? 

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

A good start!

Now, how do we make the Unit Commissioner role effective?

If you look at the job description...

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/NCST-Unit-Commissioner-Job-Description.pdf

...it assumes some key conditions - that Commissioners integrate into the unit rhythms, and that units can access the Commissioner's Assessment and will follow the guidance of the Unit Commissioner.  

The many Unit Commissioners I have talked with express frustration over the following things:

1.  The unit leadership views them as an outsider, with bad intent. Word on the street is, you never see a Commissioner unless there is a problem in the unit.  That is, they are harbingers of an illness in the unit.  This is probably a result of #2...

2.  Commissioners wear more hats than that of Unit Commissioner, and this detracts from their being able to spend the time it takes to build solid relationships so that a unit will listen to what you have to offer.  IMO, Commissioners should be attending unit meetings about monthly, and a unit outing about every quarter... (no, they don't have to camp out overnight, but they should have that opportunity!!  Cannot do this under current policy unless they are on the unit roster.  And, although I cannot find this in writing at the moment, I believe Commissioners cannot be members of units they are assigned to,.  Catch-22.)  (No, they should not be counted as adult leadership for supervision requirements.)

3.  No one knows who their unit commissioner is.  Where can I find this info?  You should be able to see it in your unit info on my.scouting.  Good luck with that.  And on that line of thinking, where is my Commissioner's Unit Assessment?  The succession of Unit Leaders should be able to readily access these for several years.  Good luck with that, too 😜  Bottom line: lack of transparency does not engender trust.

4.  There is a culture of "we're gonna do it our way" I have seen in many units.  This first comes from an ignorance of BSA policy.  Then, once finding out they are doing something not in accordance with BSA policy, an arrogance of maintaining that posture because "that's the way we have always done it, so that's the way we are gonna continue."   What carrots does a Commissioner have to offer a unit?  And what sticks? That is, when the Commissioner (tactfully) informs the unit they are doing something awry, there is no repercussion unless it is a YPT violation (see #1.)  Here's an example... a Commissioner visits an Eagle Project in progress to lend a hand and build relationships with the unit.  He sees a youth using a battery powered skill saw (and with no hearing or eye protection).  https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-028.pdf  When the Commissioner discreetly points this out to the unit leaders on hand, the unit leaders take no action to inform the Eagle candidate running the show, nor do they take any other action to correct the situation.  Should the Commissioner employ a "stick" here and tell the unit leader he will report the matter to the Chartered Organization Rep, or the District Executive, or the Scout Executive?  Should the Commissioner note this in a Unit Assessment Report? Should he file a "Near Miss Report"???   https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-017_fillable.pdf  See how we are going down the road of point #1??  (BTW, yes, this has happened, and nothing came of it, except the Commissioner was re-assigned to a different unit at his request.  Do you think that UC felt supported by the DE or council leadership??)

Overall, I find the attitude of self-policing, improvement, and a desire to know the right way to do things and to do it generally lacking in most adult leaders.  Is a UC gonna be the one to change that culture in a unit?

 

 

This is all tough right? I read this, I immediately pictured this as a few different units in my district. What I have seen is that they have a couple of bad leaders, they are clinch positions, they do it their own way without regard to the BSA way, without regard to safety and ypt, because of connections they never get hit with the naughty stick, and when they move on the unit is in such shambles, all of the other leaders have been taught to hate and distrust anyone outside the unit, and then the unit implodes due to all of the bad habits and insular paranoia. 

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

3.  No one knows who their unit commissioner is.  Where can I find this info?  You should be able to see it in your unit info on my.scouting.  Good luck with that.  And on that line of thinking, where is my Commissioner's Unit Assessment?  The succession of Unit Leaders should be able to readily access these for several years.  Good luck with that, too 😜  Bottom line: lack of transparency does not engender trust.

You have a lot of good points. 
 

Who is your Comissioner? Very easy to see at my.scouting. Login, go to your unit, click on organization manager, then unit dashboard. The dashboard should really be the landing page and get rid of the menus. 

[DuctTape]

The metriics in the performance evaluation of the DE are what the DE will focus on. Until and unless the items we discuss as important are the primary measure of a DEs performance, they will never get done.