quality, commissioners, and more, oh my

[skeptic]

Again; this can all be laid on the warped legal system in this country, along with somehow thinking human frailties can be avoided.  Reality tells us that the human animal will often find a way to do what they wish and there are no completely safe interactions, only properly supervised.  Most of these issues would not be a problem in other parts of the so-called free world.  

 

[Runningwolf]

Eagledad is spot on. Don't erase boys.

I am applying a broad brush for brevity. Use your brains and apply a Pareto distribution. Keep your OFF cans out of my campfire.

And so, we vent:

Been with BSA over 50 years. Currently on a troop committee. A very successful troop. Thirty boys with six eagles in the last year. We’re one retirement away from total collapse. 

1) If we write here like we’re afraid a Scout might read it, this is nothing more than a cracker barrel.

2) I believe victims. They deserve way more than they will ever see. I’ve seen severe abuse in the BSA – and reported it. I was 15.  I was hunted for a few hours through the brush and trees before the perps were driven from camp. As an adult, I chased some bare-______ perp away from camp with my vehicle. Then I called the sheriff. In the end, there is very little even a sheriff can do to a guy who was “only taking a leak.” The guy was let go with a warning. I'd still be happy to chase that _________ with my truck. BSA gave me that oppotunity.

3) A trans kid’s smile is the same as a straight kid’s smile when they learn for the first time at my waterfront that they can swim. Wow! Isn't that smile great! YES! Those bronze gods actually do something out there on the docks!

4) BSA has evaporated from my local market. When BSA became inclusive, for every Scout gained, 9+ were lost, effectively excluding 9 out of 10 interested boys. With that nine went 18 parents and 36 grandparents. This market is now a wasteland, devoid of most Scouts and nearly all alumni. The math is simple. Inclusivity brought about mass exclusion.

When the cataclysm came, a DE blithely said to me, “Well, now we can do it the right way.” I said, “Dude, you can’t do anything if you don’t have clients.” 

The recent poll concerning mixed troops was extracted from youth. Youth are not the clients. Parents are the clients. Will mothers will send their sons on overnighters with someone else's daughter? Will fathers send their daughter overnight with someone else's son? And, who’d a thunk it? Will wives send  send their husband overnight with another woman?

“Good riddance,” SmartyPants might say. But the straight kid’s smile is the same as the trans kid’s smile when he learns to swim. But the straight kid is not at camp. Momma said, “Sorry kiddo. We’re not doing that.” 

1 - 9 = -8. Don’t erase boys.

[DuctTape]

@Runningwolf I read your vent with an open mind. I understand that there are parents who will choose whether their child participates in scouts (or not). The choice of parents however is not equivalent to BSA being exclusionary. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

14 hours ago, Runningwolf said:

Will mothers will send their sons on overnighters with someone else's daughter? Will fathers send their daughter overnight with someone else's son? And, who’d a thunk it? Will wives send  send their husband overnight with another woman?

Yes, yes, and yes, happening right now as we speak in the US and has been happening for literally over sixty years elsewhere. There is ample proof of concept here - this is a weak argument unless you have data showing that a large enough fraction of parents to cripple Scouting America as a whole refuse to send their children to youth activities that only have other children that are just like their child demographically. And even if you did, it's an argument pertaining to the goal of growing or maintaining Scouting America the organization as opposed to preparing youth to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

And like DuctTape said, parents centering identity politics over a quality alternative learning program isn't really the fault of Scouting America. If the parents in your community can't stand doing things with people that aren't just like themselves in every way, then arguably they were never interested in scouting in the first place. We have always been a movement consisting of different "categories" of people - remember that Brownsea deliberately included scouts of different socioeconomic status.  The current WOSM reference document The Essential Characteristics of Scouting starts with this BP quote that I'm sure you've heard before, in the context of Messengers of Peace if nothing else: 

Quote

“When the young citizens, male and female, in all countries are brought up to look upon their neighbours as brothers and sisters in the human family allied together with the common aim of service and sympathetic helpfulness towards each other, they will no longer think as heretofore in terms of war as against rivals, but in terms of peace and goodwill towards one another.”

Robert Baden-Powell, 1922: Education in Love in Place of Fear

The first paragraph reads

 

Quote

THE IDEAS ON WHICH SCOUTING IS GROUNDED

Since its inception, Scouting has been grounded in the ideals of the equal dignity of all human beings, the intrinsic and unique value of every girl and boy, and their potential to create new answers to the challenges of living together in harmony among their fellow humans and with nature.

These are ideas that have been shared by many civilizations. The Zulu greeting “Sawubona” literally means “I see you” as recognition of the other person. These ideals embody a commitment to inclusivity that have also been expressed within the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) and the Declaration of the Rights of the Child (1959). Scouting’s vision of mutual respect and openness, its optimism for the future, and its confidence in young people, along with the belief that young people and adults can learn with and from each other, are also embedded within those action- oriented, transformative approaches to education.

 

Scouting isn't equally popular everywhere because our ideals aren't equally popular everywhere. But we don't compromise our values just because they're unpopular in some particular place. That's a key strength of our movement. The implied proposal you seem to be making is that while you agree that trans and cis kids are equally important and valuable, we should exclude the trans kids (and perhaps everyone else who isn't able-bodied, cishet, at least middle class, etc) anyway because the parents of the cis kids don't want their kids hanging out with trans kids. Is that correctly restated?

Sorry to hear that your troop is having problems, but my unit has to my knowledge 100% straight cis kids and plenty of boys whose parents are happy to have them there, are happy to have them share a campsite with the girls, and wives of male leaders who don't have a problem with them going camping with us female leaders (and vice versa). (To be fair, I don't really care what their sexual orientation is and they're cubs so I could be wrong about that 100%, I'm not really seeking that information.) Heck, one of the probably straight cis boys who's having a hard time got a man to man emotional intelligence talk from one of the male leaders recently. We've had a good recruitment season and have now made up the losses we suffered after COVID. Are you sure that you're framing your unit's problems correctly in the first place?

[Runningwolf]

2 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

this is a weak argument unless you have data showing that a large enough fraction of parents to cripple Scouting America as a whole refuse to send their children to youth activities that only have other children that are just like their child demographically.

Well, it's enough to cripple The Boy Scouts of America in the Rocky Mountains. Some might consider that significant. Apparently, also, increasingly in the Catholic church (52/333 million nationwide).

An enlightening reply, nevertheless.  I will study it yet for some time. Thank you.

I don't think COVID is the reason for losing 145000/150000 in Utah and Idaho. That's a pretty big framing error, even for me, particulary since my mug is in the photo.

Nationwide, had Scouting just retained market share, we (BSA) should be at 8 million now. AwakeEnergyScout, do you have a sermon explaining that massive screw up?

3 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

And even if you did, it's an argument pertaining to the goal of growing or maintaining Scouting America the organization as opposed to preparing youth to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

You can't do anything if you don't have a clientele.

Ah, this is becoming quite the metaphorical cobler, is it not?

It's worth noting that the Scout Oath and Law originate from Catholic scripture. Catholics have not changed too much in their thinking about these foundational doctrines in 2000 years. Could it be that it is BSA (at 1.2 million), not the Catholics (at 1.4 billion), that no longer appreciates the original intent?

Bear in mind that I am still in the program. I love smiles of all sorts at my waterfront.

Rather than steal from the Boy Scouts though, could we not just make more pie? Different flavors, even. In my experience, the original flavor so tasty to boys and men, while tolerated by a few others, is not really what they'd prefer. Make them their own flavors! Why can't the-soon-to-be Scouting America, heir to the 110 year-old beacon on the hill, do that? Two-week old iPhone apps manage it, why can't we? Why can't we admit that we need different things for different people and do something about it, rather than squeeze square pegs into one round hole.

But please, more, more. I take all comers, acerbic or otherwise. If we don't invite critics, we just live in a cracker barrel.

Grow the pie.

Don't erase boys.

[HashTagScouts]

On 11/1/2024 at 4:46 PM, Runningwolf said:

Well, it's enough to cripple The Boy Scouts of America in the Rocky Mountains. Some might consider that significant. Apparently, also, increasingly in the Catholic church (52/333 million nationwide).

An enlightening reply, nevertheless.  I will study it yet for some time. Thank you.

I don't think COVID is the reason for losing 145000/150000 in Utah and Idaho. That's a pretty big framing error, even for me, particulary since my mug is in the photo.

Nationwide, had Scouting just retained market share, we (BSA) should be at 8 million now. AwakeEnergyScout, do you have a sermon explaining that massive screw up?

You can't do anything if you don't have a clientele.

Ah, this is becoming quite the metaphorical cobler, is it not?

It's worth noting that the Scout Oath and Law originate from Catholic scripture. Catholics have not changed too much in their thinking about these foundational doctrines in 2000 years. Could it be that it is BSA (at 1.2 million), not the Catholics (at 1.4 billion), that no longer appreciates the original intent?

Bear in mind that I am still in the program. I love smiles of all sorts at my waterfront.

Rather than steal from the Boy Scouts though, could we not just make more pie? Different flavors, even. In my experience, the original flavor so tasty to boys and men, while tolerated by a few others, is not really what they'd prefer. Make them their own flavors! Why can't the-soon-to-be Scouting America, heir to the 110 year-old beacon on the hill, do that? Two-week old iPhone apps manage it, why can't we? Why can't we admit that we need different things for different people and do something about it, rather than squeeze square pegs into one round hole.

But please, more, more. I take all comers, acerbic or otherwise. If we don't invite critics, we just live in a cracker barrel.

Grow the pie.

Don't erase boys.

I'm glad you'll welcome comments.

Membership started steady decline after 1999. Gay youth were not openly admitted until after 2013. How do you explain those years?

“Good riddance,” SmartyPants might say. But the straight kid’s smile is the same as the trans kid’s smile when he learns to swim. But the straight kid is not at camp. Momma said, “Sorry kiddo. We’re not doing that.” 

1 - 9 = -8. Don’t erase boys.

 

Apparently, your presumption is that gay youth are not "real boys".

 

As a youth, my son was a Scout.

My son is an Eagle Scout, Vigil Honor recipient, spent years on camp staff, spent years as NYLT staff, Lodge officer, served stints as Den Chief, Quartermaster, Scribe, ASPL, and SPL for his troop. 

My son is also bi-sexual. He never hid that, it was never an issue that he felt was a necessary topic within Scouting and felt the same for anyone who is straight/gay/bi. That is who he is, and he who he has always been. Period. I would say your "smiles at the waterfront", while holding a bigoted view of those youth when you are away from the waterfront is far more of a problem than someone like my son having been a part of the BSA.  

[fred8033]

16 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

Membership started steady decline after 1999. ... How do you explain those years?

#1  Game systems and internet growth
#2  Burnout by expanding to younger and younger ages.
#3  Lack of perceived rich and rewarding program; whether caused by burnout or too much focus on leadership or just plan lack of focus on fun and adventure.  Now, those 1990s kids are having kids and deciding there are better ways for their own kids to spend time.  

IMHO, little of the membership drop is about policies.  It's about product and perception of the product.  

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

#1  Game systems and internet growth
#2  Burnout by expanding to younger and younger ages.
#3  Lack of perceived rich and rewarding program; whether caused by burnout or too much focus on leadership or just plan lack of focus on fun and adventure.  Now, those 1990s kids are having kids and deciding there are better ways for their own kids to spend time.  

IMHO, little of the membership drop is about policies.  It's about product and perception of the product.  

Yep, National made major changes to the Tiger program in 1999, switching from 2 meetings a month to 4 meetings and requiring an adult to attend all activities with each Tiger scout. The Cub program was already overburdened, but those changes added insult to injury and made it less desirable to busy parents. The drop was predictable, as was the sudden drop of Troops four years later that resulted from the decline of the Cub program. 

If I remember right, membership had been dropping in the early 1990s until the war in Iraq. The sudden boost of patriotism seemed to motivate temporary growth in the BSA.

Barry

Edited November 4 by Eagledad

[fred8033]

22 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Yep, National made major changes to the Tiger program in 1999, switching from 2 meetings a month to 4 meetings and requiring an adult to attend all activities with each Tiger scout. The Cub program was already overburdened, but those changes added insult to injury and made it less desirable to busy parents. The drop was predictable, as was the sudden drop of Troops four years later that resulted from the decline of the Cub program. 

If I remember right, membership had been dropping in the early 1990s until the war in Iraq. The sudden boost of patriotism seemed to motivate temporary growth in the BSA.

Barry

If I had to do it again, starting in 2nd or 3rd grade would have been plenty early enough.  Just like anything, the program got old fast.

[Eagledad]

32 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

If I had to do it again, starting in 2nd or 3rd grade would have been plenty early enough.  Just like anything, the program got old fast.

I was the Dist Membership Chair between 1995 and 2000. National polled our opinions of the early Tiger program and what changes would improve the program. I was shocked to learn that the changes in 1999 were the opposite of the suggestions we provided. I ran the district meeting that announced the changes to the packs, and they were not received well. Two packs quit their Tiger program, and several others didn't add the changes. We learned later that National based their program changes from polls of Tiger parents. Not pack leaders. That also explains why National went to the much more expensive blue shirts from the much cheaper Tiger T-shirts. That was another big deal for young, busy parents who were deciding whether to join.

Barry

[MattR]

On 11/3/2024 at 1:56 PM, HashTagScouts said:

Membership started steady decline after 1999.

I think it really started well before that. There's a peak around 1973, just about when I joined, and then there's another, smaller peak, around 1990. The first peak probably corresponds to the baby boom kids being old enough to be in scouts. That second peak is likely from the children of those in the first peak.

[mrjohns2]

The peaks have interesting demographic connections. Percentage of scout age children, boys before and all now, would help eliminate these impacts. 

[Tron]

On 11/4/2024 at 7:07 AM, fred8033 said:

#1  Game systems and internet growth
#2  Burnout by expanding to younger and younger ages.
#3  Lack of perceived rich and rewarding program; whether caused by burnout or too much focus on leadership or just plan lack of focus on fun and adventure.  Now, those 1990s kids are having kids and deciding there are better ways for their own kids to spend time.  

IMHO, little of the membership drop is about policies.  It's about product and perception of the product.  

I am starting to believe that the #1 problem is quality control. So many bad units run by bad leaders. How many kids join, have a horrible experience, quit, and never come back? 

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, Tron said:

I am starting to believe that the #1 problem is quality control. So many bad units run by bad leaders. How many kids join, have a horrible experience, quit, and never come back? 

Agreed.  Quality control is a major issue.  ... Scouting is like ordering a McDonalds Quarter Pounder and having equal odds of getting chicken nuggets, a taco or dog food.  

Units have such different personalities and habits.  Leaders are even more varied.  When the scouting magic is there, it's a wonderful experience.  It's easy to miss out on that magic though.

[InquisitiveScouter]

30 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Agreed.  Quality control is a major issue.  ... Scouting is like ordering a McDonalds Quarter Pounder and having equal odds of getting chicken nuggets, a taco or dog food.  

Units have such different personalities and habits.  Leaders are even more varied.  When the scouting magic is there, it's a wonderful experience.  It's easy to miss out on that magic though.

This is what the Commissioner Corps is supposed to be for.  And, in all the councils I have been in, it has been sorely lacking.  I have some thoughts on the reasons for this.  What are yours, and how could we fix?

Edited Saturday at 12:06 AM by InquisitiveScouter