Answer to Judo / Karate Question

[fleetfootedfox]

Somebody wanted to know about injury rates. According to this scientific study, soccer, volleyball and gymnastics were worse than the martial arts when it comes to injury rates.

 

Unique Identifier

93060965

Authors

Tenvergert EM. Ten Duis HJ. Klasen HJ.

Institution

Department of Traumatology, University Hospital of Groningen, The

Netherlands.

Title

Trends in sports injuries, 1982-1988: an in-depth study on four types of

sport.

Source

Journal of Sports Medicine & Physical Fitness. 32(2):214-20, 1992 Jun.

Abbreviated Source

J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 32(2):214-20, 1992 Jun.

Local Messages

unidentified

Abstract

In this study, we analyzed the records of both inpatients and outpatients

which were treated for acute sports injuries in the Trauma Department of

the University of Groningen (The Netherlands) during the years 1982 to

1988. We examined whether there was a trend in sports injuries in this

time period. The study comprised four types of sports, i.e., soccer,

volleyball, gymnastics, and martial arts. The absolutely highest rates of

injuries across the seven years were found in soccer, followed by

gymnastics, volleyball, and martial arts. Injuries sustained at

participating in soccer, volleyball, and gymnastics involved for the major

part the lower extremities, followed by injuries of the upper extremities,

whereas the reverse pattern was observed for patients who participated in

martial arts. For all four types of sport, the ankle and foot were the

most frequently site of injury of the lower extremities. Sprains and

strains were the major types of injury. Most injuries were seen at ages

between 10 and 30 years. The ratio of male to female patients within age

groups did not differ significantly across the seven years. We concluded

that, except for martial arts, the increased participation in sports in

the last decade was not accompanied with a change in the patterns of

sports injuries by the patients' age, sex, and number and nature of the

injury. This consistency in results can be used to guide the development

of prevention programs aimed at a reduction of injuries in specific

sports.

 

[packsaddle]

I trained in Gojuryu for a few years and I have friends who are trained in Hapkido and Aikido. These last two are not alike and could not, at least in my mind, be lumped as similar.

Hapkido is often advertised as a 'combat' form and although much emphasis is on defense and use of the attacker's movement to misdirect his force, the discipline of Kyok Pa, for example, sets Hapkido apart from Aikido.

 

By the way, we all were pretty good at one time - but the best compliment I ever got was, "you sure heal quickly." And they were right, I did on many occasions.

[Cubmaster C]

Per the Guide to Safe Scouting, Karate is a "unauthorized and restricted" activity.

I have a Karate group that would like to come do a demo for the Pack - is it unathorized to watch in the Pack setting, or does it only apply to participation in the sport?

 

Thanks!!!!

[Crew21_Adv]

Cubmaster C,

 

Good question.

 

In my opinion.

 

I think the restriction is for participation, and does not cover demonstrating, viewing or observing. I would recommend using your best judgment as a Scout leader and discuss with the committee. There are a few martial arts that are strictly offensive, even with the demonstrations going for the quicker "kill".

 

For my troop, we once received a local tour permission (permit) to take our Troop to a college football game.

 

Also, I've also been to a Tiger Cub Den outing where we went to a personal hunting museum. My son and I were attendees, not the trip planner. The museum was a converted bowling alley, became a trophy museum for a local millionaire and hunting enthusiast) The world hunter had many stuffed animals statues and mounted heads from around the world. All of the animals were on the allowed hunting list of that country and considered "over populated" by the countries game wardens. The Tigers thought it was neat. But the Tiger Cub Partners all had mixed feelings, from neat to disgusting. I said this just to "know your audience".

 

But for a karate tech sport. I think it would be safe to host a demonstration, but absolutely no audience participation (or bringing someone for the audience to hold a board, balance an apple, or anything that may inadvertently cause injury to an audience member).

 

Good Luck and hope they enjoy it!

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[Eagle1982]

I think it's one of things where the uninformed make policy for a whole.

 

Scouts are not allowed to have gun fights. Whether squirt guns, laser tag guns or whatever. Using that same logic, punching and kicking each other is out too.

 

Judo and Aikido are not striking arts. Since wrestling is allowed, it makes sense to allow other sports that use take downs and pins as opposed to strikes. Of course using this logic, grappling should be allowed.

 

 

[Eagle1982]

Oh, and let's not forget one thing. At some point, Baden Powell thought quarterstaff training for Self Defense was a worthwhile endeavor.

 

 

 

[Novice_Cubmaster]

No to Karate - but Ice Hockey is OK???

 

Oldest son just had to sit out for nearly 4 weeks due to a concussion from hockey. Other son does a "hard" martial art - the only owwie was from breaking a board at a belt test.

 

Go figure.

 

NC

[HobcawChaos]

Interesting thread. Our GS council program regularly includes workshops at various karate schools.

[hot_foot_eagle]

I have two sons who actively participate in Karate. Perhaps it's only our dojo, but there has been a strong emphasis from the day they started on the responsibility that comes with power. "Fighting" has always been presented as a defensive action of last resort.

 

I think that the current popularity of MMA muddies the waters a bit when it comes to the martial arts, but the Karate prohibition predates this fad.

 

Based on the benefits I've seen for my own boys and others, I would like to see the BSA reconsider their stance on the discipline.

 

 

[Eagle1982]

The problem of course is that in Karate and other traditional martial arts is that you are learning how to strike people with the intent of hurting them. Whether you are actually hurting them during practice is irrelevant, the intent is that you are learning to damage, possibly permanently, other human beings. I can only conjecture, but that is probably something the Scouting org was frowning upon.

 

Although there are more injuries in Soccer, Hockey, Gymnastics and many other sports, at least the goal of those sports is not to cause injury.

 

What perhaps is needed is some kind of differentiation between martial arts training and the sport aspect that "little 6 year old black belt Jimmy does."

[Novice_Cubmaster]

"Although there are more injuries in Soccer, Hockey, Gymnastics and many other sports, at least the goal of those sports is not to cause injury."

 

Although my son's hockey team plays a pretty clean game, we've sure played some teams where the plan is to win by attrition.

 

In contrast, the adult league is very careful about rough play (but then, we've all got to go to work the next day).

 

NC

 

[fleetfootedfox]

Interesting, but Judo teaches choke holds. In competition, they actually choke people until they pass out. That is far more violent than anything I saw at karate tournaments when my kids were taking karate lessons. In the karate tournaments, they had two main activities. One was called "kata", which was almost like a dance competition. No contact at all. Then there was sparring, which was won on points. They wear pads and they can't kick below the belt.

 

Now, I'm not saying people can't get hurt doing karate, but in karate tournaments they are taking precautions not to get anybody hurt and are never trying to hurt anybody. They are just going for points. There are no knock-outs. So, then why is judo okay but not modern karate as it is actually being practiced (not somebody's idea of it based on watching old Karate Kid movies)?

[Eagle1982]

If you are at a Judo tournament, and you see choke holds allowed where people are actually getting choked out, then you are at a poorly run tournament. Choke holds are usually not allowed for children (usually 13 or 14 is the age break) and the ref stops the action once the choke is applied, also there is still the concept of "tapping out".

 

While I know fewer people get hurt doing karate tournaments, and they use pads and all, it's the concept that you are doing an activity whose sole purpose is learning to cause harm to people. If one is taking karate, and not learning to hurt people, then they are not doing karate. The purpose of football, soccer, hockey, lacrosse and other sports is to move an object (ball/puck) into a specified location (endzone/net), the purpose of running/swimming is to be faster than the others. None of them have as their main goal, the idea of learning and practicing how to cause harm to others. Whether that's the actual reason, all those years ago, the decision to exclude karate or not I can't say. However, based on their stance regarding guns and "gun fights" it's reasonable.

[fleetfootedfox]

Eagle1982, I cannot think of any reason for choking somebody outside of a tournament situation if it is not with the intention of hurting them.

[Gunny2862]

Scouter760, I have choked out several people, in the line of duty, for the express purpose of avoiding hurting them. If you can maneuver your way into position, best done with a little helpful distraction by your partner... , it's a lot less destructive/painful than almost any forceful takedown - or shooting them, or tasing, or beanbagging, or...

 

My TKD instructor would have hunted me down(still would) if SHE found out I'd used TKD offensively - as taught in her school it's a purely defensive skill.