Need a Resource or Guidance

[FScouter]

"BSA does not have listed, posted, or available anywhere, clarification on this point one way or another."

 

You will never find any BSA publication that will say touch football is allowed. The G2SS lists various activities and actions that are forbidden. It could not possibly list everything that is allowed. Therefore, everything one can think of is permitted, except as not allowed in the G2SS.

 

The burden of proof is not on the unit to show where it is written that touch football is permitted, but rather on your DE and CC to show you where it is forbidden.

 

Also, the committee chair is not empowered to make policy. The chartered org maybe, but not the committee or the CC.

[TySim]

"You will never find any BSA publication that will say touch football is allowed. The G2SS lists various activities and actions that are forbidden"

 

The point was not about Flag Football, and the G2SS does say Flag football is permitted.

The point was the Prohibition of any Physical Contact between Adults and Youth.

That is not written down anywhere, one way or the other.

 

To date it seems that the issue has not been refined / defined / discussed at that level.

 

More research has shown that troop policies / interpretations cover both sides of the coin...

 

Several state specifically, no contact at all (Wonder how they shake hands?)

Others say inappropiate contact, some say excessive uninitiated contact (there are several summer camps that have that wording)

 

Therefore, thus far it is open to interpretation...

 

As for the burden of proof, I beg to differ.

 

"The burden of proof is not on the unit to show where it is written that touch football is permitted, but rather on your DE and CC to show you where it is forbidden. "

 

The Burden of Proof is actually on me to show that the policy implemented by the CC / DE is counter productive and should be removed.

 

The CC is quite within his rights to implement a policy like this (with the approval of the committee) unless the COR / CO forbid him from doing so.

 

CC's have implemented other policy in reference to G2SS etc, that is clearly allowed by BSA but they decided they did not want to allow. A very common one is a prohibition on Sheath Knifes.

 

Another that seems to be prevelant is the use of certain fuels (not propane) for cooking etc...

 

Most CO's / COR's will not step in. I have yet to deal with this one yet, but we shall see how it evolves.

 

 

[Eagledad]

OK, I stepped way out of bounds. I got the CC from your first post I guess. As for the rest, I dont understand we got to a verdict from the NJ Supreme Court, or whatever.

 

Your last few posts also confused me. It sounds like you want the adults to be included with the scouts, provided all is fair, but have justified in your mind good arguments against it. Is that right?

 

I have watched too many programs cut themselves short from the fears of what could happen. I know of several Cub Packs that dont do any kind of competitions like Pinewood Derby or games because they fear boys will get hurt. I know of a Troop that allows only a maximum of two scouts per car during travel because they fear wrecks that that would kill all riders. This troop averages 40 scouts a campout.

 

What is interesting is that you guys werent breaking any rules or policy that I can see. Everything that has followed was caused by the fear of one adult with authority.

 

OK, I can understand how emotions can get the better of us making our minds run wild even visualizing rulings from the Supreme Court. Im just suggesting keeping things in context. This is just a simple Boy Scout troop playing a simple game of football.

 

I am sure everyone involve are good decent folks. I wonder, if it were you asking the Troop to stop football because you were afraid the apparent violence of the game could influence boys in the wrong way, would the troop have reacted the same?

 

Scouting is hard enough as it is without adding our own fears. I would suggest an effort to keep this simple. Use the official guidelines recommended from training and try to not read too much more into those guidelines than intended. Then suggest the adults, as a group, make a decision taking the monkey off the CCs back. I think that is important because the adults need to function from one general idea as a team. Maybe you have that now, I cant tell from your post. But what I gathered from you at first was there was an overreaction by one or two members of your troop from a complex interpretation of the guidelines. Do you still feel that is the situation?

 

As for the Scouts, well you are who you are, fears and all. They need to understand that they are suppose to work within the limits of the Scout Law, Scout Oath and the adults wisdom. What the scouts have going for them is Wisdom can change as the adults learn and grow.

 

Sorry I stepped in this, too much time on my hands I guess. I will sit back and watch for the conclusion.

 

Hey have a great Christmas week. I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[TySim]

Barry,

Please do not leave the discussion. If you are misunderstanding something, that means I am not stating things clearly.

Let me place everything in a concise edition for you, then we can continue. :-)

 

It started when several older adults asked me (and another leader I found out) to join their touch football game.

 

The CC said no, it was inappropiate.

There was a meeting that followed where they told us (more specifically to me, since at that time I am the only scouter to actually have played with them) that YP says we can not play touch football. Furthermore, Scouters are not to touch scouts unless it is a dire emergency, like pulling them out of the way of an oncoming car.

 

In private with the CC I voiced my opinion that that policy was incorrect. that YP does not prohibit it, and that because flag football is listed in the G2SS and all items in the G2SS involve both Scouts and Scouters, that it is implied as being allowed.

 

The CC went to the round table the following evening, and discussed with the DE. The DE told him that it is not allowed, that there is not to be contact of any sort betwen scouts and scouters. (He cited the YP policy as the source for that)

 

The final verdict at that piont from the CC was that Flag Football is ok, touch is not.

 

I originally came here to find some type of ammo to refute their claims, and vowed to keep things posted.

 

I have continued my research from all angles, and applied the same guidelines as are used in court (which are generally accepted guidelines in intrepretting policy by almost every organization) hence the NJ Lawsuit reference.

 

The final result is that I am right in my assessment of what the policy actually says, Which is "There is no prohibition listed that prevents a scouter from touching a scout provided it happens in plain view of others (2 deep leadership) and is NOT inappropiate."

 

However, I have since learned (as of today) that a CC can and often does make policies that define a higher standard than the BSA policy.

therefore even though I am right, I found out that it is useless because he can supercede the policy....

 

I hope that gets it straight.

 

 

[FScouter]

TySim - I think you're putting too much of a burden on yourself. The ammo you need is the G2SS and YPT training, and they do NOT say anything that supports what you are being told by your CC and DE. Has your CC taken YPT training?? Does your CC have a current G2SS?? If you want to push the issue, I'd suggest going to one or both of them and explain that you want to learn more about the "no touching" policy and to please show you the written BSA resource they are referring to.

 

Regarding making policy, your CC may in fact be making policies, but that doesn't make it right. The purpose of the troop committee is to support the Scoutmaster in delivering the BSA program to boys. The purpose of the committee chairman is to see to it that all the functions of the committee are being handled. Making policies is NOT a committee function. The committee chair has no more business making up policies than you do. Refer to the Troop Committee Guidebook for more info on the function of the committee and committee chair. Has your committee taken the Troop Committee Challenge training?

[Lynda J]

Well guess we would have been in big trouble when I directed day camp this year and our DE played flag football with the kids. Just like I did and like most of the leaders that wanted to did. Sorry we have become so scared of touching that kids aren't getting "good touching" any more. Hugs. Pats on the head, pats on the back.

Folks. I hug my boys. Each and everyone of them from the 11 year olds to the 17 years olds.

And guess what. They hug me back.

Play with the boys. Tell the CC to stop being so scared and learn how to have fun with the kids.

[eagle90]

Well said Lynda J.!