Need a Resource or Guidance

[TySim]

Here is my problem....

Our scouts (mostly the older scouts) play flag / touch football on most camping events. The first Camping trip I went on (as a new ASM) I was invited to participate in a game where we played another troop. The other troop had several leaders playing as well.

 

Since then, The boys have asked me to participate twice more. However, on this last trip, when the boys invited me to play, Our CC said that it was inappropiate and I could not participate.

 

This really upset a few kids who later mentioned to another scouter that the leaders had an "elitist attitude" that they were now "too good to participate with the scouts."

 

At the meeting following this trip, our SM and CC called all leaders and adults into a private meeting to discuss youth protection. The specifically mention playing touch / flag football with the youths as inappropiate.

 

From everything I read / seen, I think they are wrong.

 

First, all activities in the Guide to Safe Scouting seem to include leader participation (although Youth Led) and Flag Football is listed there.

 

Second, Adult interaction with the scouts seems to be the underlying theme in all the training I have taken thus far.

 

I tried to find something more specific in reference to acceptability, but the closest thing I can find is the reference to Judo.

 

I am a 1st degree black belt in Judo (from 1988) and unless something changed, the USJA does not allow instructors under the age of 18.

Judo is a contact sport. It involves the instructor using his students as Throwing Dummies (term from Judo - unless you participated, the joke would be missed.)

Not only is there physical contact, but the center of leverage used to execute throws is the hips. That means in order to do a hip throw, or whell throw as examples, the instructor must stand in front of the youth, bend his knees, and thrust his buttocks back and up into the groin area of the youth in order to get the lift leverage needed to do the throw.

 

This is allowed under the Guide to Safe Scouting guidelines.

I think that would be a much more inappropiate behavior than simple touch/flag football.

 

But again, I can not find any reference or resource that I am able to go back to them and say "Hey look, I understand you want to protect the kids, but you've become paranoid in your application of these rules." (ok, maybe not those words exactly....)

 

Any help you can provide would be appreciated.

 

 

[SemperParatus]

I expect you will not find a 'silver bullet' written in BSA literature that says adults can or cannot play touch/flag football with scouts.

 

My opinion is that the CC is overacting big time.

 

When our scoutmasters play touch football with the scouts, it is usually the adults that get hurt. Last year at summercamp, we had a game. One ASM got run over by a scout (the scout is 6'3"", 245 pounds and runs a 4.8 40-yd dash) and his shoulder was numb for hours. Another ASM broke his toe. I was sore for three days afterward. The scouts just had a blast, while us old guys learned a very valuable lesson...we are old. Of course, we make sure that both teams have scouts and adults, that way the adults don't have to suffer an humiliating defeat.

 

As long as its all in fun and no one is getting injured (too much) it should not be a problem.

[SemperParatus]

TySim

 

I did find the following relating to a scout that was injured playing touch football (Cascade Pacific Council) and sued the unit leaders for failure to properly supervise - earning the paralyzed scout $4 million in damages. It does not say how the scout was injured, it could have been that it was only scouts playing touch football at the time.

 

 

STATEMENTS ON INTRODUCED BILLS AND JOINT RESOLUTIONS (Senate - April 07, 1997)

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

[Page: S2787]

By Mr. ASHCROFT:

 

S. 514. A bill to provide uniform standards for the awarding of compensatory and punitive damages in a civil action against a volunteer or volunteer service organization, and for other purposes; to the Committee on the Judiciary.

 

 

THE LIABILITY REFORM FOR VOLUNTEER SERVICES ACT

 

[Page: S2788]

Mr. ASHCROFT. Mr. President, in his `Democracy in America,' Alexis de Tocqueville observed `Americans of all ages, all stations in life * * * are forever forming associations.' Be it to repair a public thoroughfare or to promote temperance, de Tocqueville noted volunteer associations were Americans' best response to community needs and to cultural pathologies.

 

This observation, made over 150 years ago, certainly has been the case until a little over a decade ago. Volunteers have nurtured the elderly, they have coached generations of children, they have cleaned up our communities, they have supported and counseled those in need throughout American history.

 

I look back at my time as Governor of the State of Missouri when we started the Clean the Highways Program using volunteers. We had 5,000 groups of volunteers--5,000 groups, not 5,000 volunteers--who accepted responsibility. It is a sort of fulfillment of de Tocqueville's observation about America, that Americans of all ages, of all stations in life are forming associations to do good things.

 

These groups have been catalysts that interact with all elements of our culture. It is to volunteers that we owe a great deal of gratitude for our social cohesion--our sense of community in America. When things are done from the perspective of government, people view them as entitlements. When things are done by individuals because they volunteer, people know that we love one another. Basically, it is in our care and regard for each other--expressed when we do things on a voluntary basis--that is the real glue that binds us together as communities and holds us together as a culture.

 

It was in 1982 that the first warning signs went out that our intricate system of volunteers fulfilling social work was under attack. In Runnemede, NJ, a Little League coach volunteer was sued because he repositioned his Little League shortstop to the outfield, and in the outfield the Little League shortstop then misjudged a flyball and sustained an eye injury. A suit was filed on the allegation that the 10-year-old youngster was a born shortstop, but not an outfielder, and the courts found the volunteer coach negligent.

 

Over the next 5 years, liability rates for Little League baseball short up from $75 to $795 forcing many leagues to stop playing.

 

In another example, a boy in a Scouting unit with the Boy Scouts of the Cascade Pacific Council suffered a paralyzing injury in a game of touch football. Several adults volunteered to supervise the trip. The youth filed a personal injury suit alleging that the Boy Scouts and the volunteers were negligent for failing to supervise him adequately.

 

I remember playing aggressive games as a Boy Scout. I remember playing a game we called fox over the hill. One group was supposed to run from one line to the other line without getting tackled, pummeled, and roughed up. That is the way boys operate. That is part of boyhood. But the jury found that the volunteers were personally liable for some $7 million. Oregon law caused the judgment to be reduced to around $4 million, but few Boy Scout volunteers can afford that kind of a judgment.

 

The jury held the volunteers to a heightened standard of care, charging them with a meticulous constant supervision level of care in their supervision over activities that routinely have been permitted without oversight. Such a standard is impossible to uphold. Anyone who has been a Boy Scout or certainly tried to supervise Boy Scouts knows that such a standard would be very difficult, and such an impossible standard has basically caused a marked drop off in voluntarism across the country.

 

 

[eagle90]

We are fortunate enough to meet in a gym, so we have a game time at the end of every troop meeting, and also usually have some time on a weekend campout for a sports activity, depending on the season. Many times the leaders join in to even up teams, to pitch, or just interact with the kids. The kids love it and so do the adults. Semper is right though - a lot of aches and pains the morning after!

 

Let's not get hung up on the political correctness and youth protection to the point where we lose the FUN. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a game of volleyball, football, softball, soccer, basketball, etc. with scouts and adults. We're not talking naked Greco-Roman wrestling, are we??

[TySim]

SemperParatus,

Thanks for the two replies thus far.

I am not looking for a silver bullet, although one would be nice, I would love to see some more guidence on the subject however.

I was already aware of the lawsuits in reference to volunteers, for the most part, it pertains more to negligence than interaction.

 

From the lawsuit synapsis...

"When the Viking reached Sauvie Island that afternoon, the group put

ashore at Hadley's Landing and the boys began playing touch football.

However, the game soon evlolved into tackle football. When Powell

ran back the kickoff, he collided hard with an opposing player and

broke his neck."

 

"In closing argument, Powell's attorney, Charles P.A. Paulson, said

that the adult volunteer leaders were negligent because they did

not closely suppervise the activities of the boys in their care"

 

I would agree if it was Tackle Football, then it would definately be off-limits for adults, and even for the scouts as well, and that is why I believe the jury awarded the victim in the case.

 

It is interesting to note the supervision problem though. I bet if the adults were playing, two things would not have happened, 1. it never would have digressed to tackle, and 2. There would be no legitimate claim of lack of supervision... "Gee your honor, We think they were unsupervised because Scouter Johnny was on the opposing team....." :-)

 

 

[Scoutmaster Ron]

Ask your CC exactly what rule was violated in youth protecion and G2SS while playing flag football.

[EagleInKY]

Play with them, have fun. They look at you in a total different light after you loosen up with them. We played a game of touch football at summer camp last year. My competitive spirit took over, and the guys saw me in a different light.

[SemperParatus]

How about this argument from the Guide to Safe Scouting.

 

The age-appropriate chart

 

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ageguides.pdf

 

lists flag football as appropriate for Tiger Cubs - With their Adult Partner. So, if Tiger Cubs can play flag football with an adult why can't boy scouts?

 

 

[TySim]

I was told that I was making "Physical Contact" with the youth, and that any physical contact is not allowed.

He also went so far as to say placing a hand on a youth's soldier (the example was from behind to get his attention) or placing your arm around his shoulder (like is actually shown in the great video for Scout Master specific training) is also prohibited.

The last reference btw was in response to an incident involving a youth that needed to be corrected, but not in an embarrassing way. Since he was in public, the leader placed his arm around the youth's shoulder, lowered his head so only the youth could hear, and told the youth that what he was doing looked bad to the others. This all within site of no less than 5 other leaders, and several other youths.

The parent of that youth actually told the leader in question that she appreciated the method in which it was done (so as not to embarrass her child)

But that is another issue entirely.......

 

[TySim]

SemperParatus, You are a genius!

That sounds like a silver bullet to me.... :-)

[OldGreyEagle]

I think the whole touching thing is rather interesting, I remember being told somewhere you cant touch someone without their permission, but that is in the context of "normal" life. When you enter a game of football, flag, two hand touch, two hand mugging, or whatever, you pretty much give your permission to be "touched". Just as pro atheletes give up the ability to charge opponents for assault when they take the field, if I am playing soccer, odds are I will at some point make contact with another player and I may or may not have the prescence of mind to ask permission before doing so.

[EagleInKY]

TySim - Sounds like your CC has gone into PC-overload. Next thing you know, we'll have to do away with the scout handshake! Now, don't get me wrong, I don't go around giving my guys hugs all day long. But, your example of disciplining a lad in private is exactly the way I handle it nearly every time. I think that a gentle whisper is much more effective than yelling.

[scoutingagain]

On our last outing we had a great time playing touch football. Adults against the Scouts. The Adults won of course, (but not by much!) and we all paid for it for the next three days. I'm reminded of the line by Mr. T in one of the Rocky movies. " I predict pain." The scouts wanted a rematch the next day, but most of the adults could barely walk.

 

I'm with those that feel your CC has gone a little to far. He/She needs a polite correction.

 

Just for information, we play a modified version of touch football. The main modification is there is no limit on the number of forward passes a team can make. Play stops when the player with the ball is touched or the ball touches the ground. The unlimited forward passes allows everyone on the team to be a potential reciever or quarterback on any play and makes for a wide open, razzle dazzle style game and keeps everyone involved. Give it a try.

 

Good Luck.

 

SA

[OneHour]

I have no problems with adult leaders participate in a game with kids; however, they have to realize the size differences and adjust accordingly. Our ex-scoutmaster is a man who weighs in about 260? He participated in dodgeball. He "nailed" several of the boys point-blank with all of his might. These are 11-13 years old, one of whom happened to be my son. The man is 200 lbs heavier than my son and to have this guy hit my son near the groin put me over the top that night! All that he or anyone his size has to do is to hit a young man's head the wrong way and it will pratically have the same effect as having the airbag hitting the boy in the head! "Paralyze" is the term that comes to mind. This has nothing to do with touching, but it has everything to do with a grownup being irresponsible!

 

Yes ... participate but know yours and the boys' limit! Somehow, in the heat of battle, this factor seems to be forgotten until it's too late.

 

1Hour

 

 

[TySim]

I agree 100% with you One Hour.

I am one that knows how good I am at playing the game, and how dangerous it could be.

The scouts in question are 15-17 range for the most part, with a few younger ones joining in on occasion.

 

I guarentee If I was dangerous to them, they would not have invited me back after the first game.

 

But again, your point is well taken.