Parents of America: If Your Child Isn't a Scout, They're Missing Out

[DuctTape]

45 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

It's not advancement that's the problem.  Kids want to brag.  The problem is shallow covered topics that are not part of the core of scouting.  Advancement should be outdoor, adventure, troop skills. 

• Five shallow covered citizen batches to earn Eagle? ... including citizen of the family 
• Merit badges where the badge is often effectively a joke.  How many scouts have said when asked what they learned?  "I really don't know." or "Nothing."

IMHO ... to earn cycling, the scout should go on a campout where there is a 50+ mile bike ride.  ... to earn hiking, the troop should do a campout with a 10+ miles of hiking (5+ each direction) ... to earn canoeing, canoe in the real world as part of an adventure.  

I'm okay with academic merit badges because someone will always want them.  Fine.  ... BUT ... Scouting advancement should be focused around outdoors, adventure and working together in a troop.  

 

 

Also mB being done without a qualified counselor to maximize the effectiveness of the Adult Association method. The system and protocols actively discourage the benefits from adult association in the mB process. This denies the scouts from a truly beneficial experience with an expert passionate about the badge. The mB system needs to be overhauled  completely and returned to its former status as a badge of merit.

[Navybone]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

 I'm okay with academic merit badges because someone will always want them.  Fine.  ... BUT ... Scouting advancement should be focused around outdoors, adventure and working together in a troop.  

 

 

But that is not all scouting is.  Its mission is: "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."   Going back in time, the mission of Boy Scouts has not just been about outdoors, that is the method.  It has been about developing young men (and now women) into resilient and useful members of society. 

Previous mission/purpose statements From Wikipedia (just did a quick search):

1910: "to teach [boys] patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred values.

1937: "Each generation as it comes to maturity has no more important duty than that of teaching high ideals and proper behavior to the generation which follows.

From the Congressional Charter: § 30902. Purposes
The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

[BinTharDunThat]

A focus on the mission is needed. [ ...taking stand on soapbox....]

Assuming the internet search to be accurate, its clear the mission statement has changed over time.

The Congressional Charter/1910 statement is not current (boys) and is not what BSA National is doing (training on "patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."  The last part would require limiting Scouting to 1916 technology and methods.

The current mission is a bit of a word salad that is indecipherable except to those already familiar with the Scout Oath and Scout Law, as it is then interpreted.  We all recall the culture debate of "morally straight."

I don't get a lot of parents wanting their kid to join BSA to learn ethics and morals because a) the parents want to take ownership of that and b) if that's why their coming, I'd like to see the kid's history.

Moreover, the current mission statement does not tell a parent of a prospective scout enough to say "yeah, that's what I want for my kid." 

Its far easier to explain a sports league as increasing athletic performance and sportsmanship. 

Or an academic program as "academic proficiency and success. 

Or Religious schooling which teaches ethical and moral  choices aligned with the parent's perception of that those should be.

The mission statement should succinctly convey what differentiates Scouting and therefore why it is worthwhile.

 

When we pitch to parents, we might share the reason to join BSA is because - "To product citizen-leaders who recognize the value of activities and concepts outside their comfort zone and who have the courage to explore them." 

BSA produces citizen-leaders through experiential activities where the members (I'll use "Scouts") see leadership from their fellows, or evaluate the leadership failures and how to avoid thereafter.  Those Scouts learn followership and leadership.  They participate in activities where the responsibility is on their shoulders because they are empowered to lead. 

Adventures (Cub Scouts) and Merit badges (Scouts BSA) (and their parallels in Sea Scouts, and Venture Scouts, and others) are directed to taking an active role in the Scout's own environment - community, nation, society and world - and learning that they can overcome any fear they may have to try knew things and then share that knowledge with others.  These badges, many chosen by the Scout themselves, also help that Scout explore vocations/avocations because one person's hobby may be another person's job.  Advancement, i.e. Ranks, is a tool to accomplish this mission by setting clear guideposts that each BSA member can identify and meet.  Camping is one of the places where the outside pressures can be eliminated so BSA members can focus on these actions.

We don't have many meetings where the Scouts get together to discuss how they are making ethical and moral choices or how we are instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.   

Its my perception that because the product is not accurately marketed to purchasers, they don't feel the need to join.  And imparting the "need" is essential.  Differentiating, rather than being a catch-all, is critical to showing why they should feel the "need" to join.

[End of yelling at the wind]

Edited August 20 by BinTharDunThat

[Eagledad]

25 minutes ago, BinTharDunThat said:

A focus on the mission is needed. [ ...taking stand on soapbox....]

Assuming the internet search to be accurate, its clear the mission statement has changed over time.

The Congressional Charter/1910 statement is not current (boys) and is not what BSA National is doing (training on "patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."  The last part would require limiting Scouting to 1916 technology and methods.

The current mission is a bit of a word salad that is indecipherable except to those already familiar with the Scout Oath and Scout Law, as it is then interpreted.  We all recall the culture debate of "morally straight."

I don't get a lot of parents wanting their kid to join BSA to learn ethics and morals because a) the parents want to take ownership of that and b) if that's why their coming, I'd like to see the kid's history.

Moreover, the current mission statement does not tell a parent of a prospective scout enough to say "yeah, that's what I want for my kid." 

Its far easier to explain a sports league as increasing athletic performance and sportsmanship. 

Or an academic program as "academic proficiency and success. 

Or Religious schooling which teaches ethical and moral  choices aligned with the parent's perception of that those should be.

The mission statement should succinctly convey what differentiates Scouting and therefore why it is worthwhile.

 

When we pitch to parents, we might share the reason to join BSA is because - "To product citizen-leaders who recognize the value of activities and concepts outside their comfort zone and who have the courage to explore them." 

BSA produces citizen-leaders through experiential activities where the members (I'll use "Scouts") see leadership from their fellows, or evaluate the leadership failures and how to avoid thereafter.  Those Scouts learn followership and leadership.  They participate in activities where the responsibility is on their shoulders because they are empowered to lead. 

Adventures (Cub Scouts) and Merit badges (Scouts BSA) (and their parallels in Sea Scouts, and Venture Scouts, and others) are directed to taking an active role in the Scout's own environment - community, nation, society and world - and learning that they can overcome any fear they may have to try knew things and then share that knowledge with others.  These badges, many chosen by the Scout themselves, also help that Scout explore vocations/avocations because one person's hobby may be another person's job.  Advancement, i.e. Ranks, is a tool to accomplish this mission by setting clear guideposts that each BSA member can identify and meet.  Camping is one of the places where the outside pressures can be eliminated so BSA members can focus on these actions.

We don't have many meetings where the Scouts get together to discuss how they are making ethical and moral choices or how we are instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.   

Its my perception that because the product is not accurately marketed to purchasers, they don't feel the need to join.  And imparting the "need" is essential.  Differentiating, rather than being a catch-all, is critical to showing why they should feel the "need" to join.

[End of yelling at the wind]

Well said.  I disagree, but well said. 

I used to poll the scoutmasters at Woodbadge with a few basic questions like: "Have you read the SM Handbook? What is the BSA Mission Statement? What are the Three Aims and Eight Methods? It's safe to say that only extreme scouting nerds know the Mission Statement.  I don't think it works for or against the motivation of parents.

I used to teach leadership, and one of the subjects we discussed was creating mission statements. A mission statement's intent is to focus on an idealistic goal, guided by valued principles toward that goal. Not just scouting, but all mission statements. Mission statements are short and easy to understand. Building ethical and moral decision-makers using the Scout Law is idealistic and provides the principles of the Scout Law to focus on the direction of the goal.  

As I said, most adult Scouters don't even know there is a mission statement. Our PLC knew it because I explained that everything we did in the program was intended to guide scouts toward the goal of making moral and ethical decisions. And if I could not explain to their understanding how part of the program didn't lead them to that goal, I would take it out. Uniforms was their first test, LOL. I won.

Mission Statements are required as a compass to guide the rest of the program in one direction when others unintentionally try to force change. However, mission statements are only the bricks of the program structure; a plan (cement) is also required to strengthen the program's integrity. Ah, that's where the Aims and Methods come in. Aims are used by the adults for measuring the scouts' performance of the Eight Methods, which are the responsibility of the scouts. There is a method to the madness,

46 minutes ago, BinTharDunThat said:

 

We don't have many meetings where the Scouts get together to discuss how they are making ethical and moral choices or how we are instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. 

No, the scouts don't discuss instilling the values of the scout oath and law much because it would put them to sleep in a program designed for adventure. And let's remember, scouting is an adult program intended to turn youth into adults of character. So, they don't have to be wise in the complexity of developing character. They only need to play the game to develop character habits. 

52 minutes ago, BinTharDunThat said:

 

Its my perception that because the product is not accurately marketed to purchasers, they don't feel the need to join.  And imparting the "need" is essential.  Differentiating, rather than being a catch-all, is critical to showing why they should feel the "need" to join.

 

I agree, but I think the issue is who the customers are that we need to sell to. Everyone is pointing at the Scouts. But mom and dad put most of their sons and daughters into the program. Most scouts never had a choice until they got older. I don't want to take away from marketing adventure, everyone likes adventure. But Mom and Dad need more than adventure. Actually, I think they had it up until recently because Character has always been part of the reputation.

What I'm hearing from many parents who were scouts is that the program is changing away from the program they were experienced and not for the better. What I'm hearing from parents who weren't scouts as a youth is that they don't know enough about the program to choose it over T-Ball. There just isn't much of marketing of scouting going on.

Here is an example of marketing that would grab the attention of parents:

Also, I've noticed that we don't see scouting in public like we used to. They are not in Scouting For Food around here anymore. Thousands of scouts from ages 5 to the real-old out in the neighborhoods volunteering for a great cause. That was great marketing. Parades? Where are the scouts? 

We seem to agree on most things. I wanted to share my perspective on where we differ. 

Barry

[BinTharDunThat]

I appreciate your points. 

I think the mission statement is about what makes the organization distinct and different from its competitors, while encompassing its unique culture, goals, and values. 

At present, the BSA mission statement could be applied (sans the incorporation by reference of Oath and Law) to any number of civic organizations.  While the Oath and Law are known quantities for those in the program, the use of this shorthand does not communicate much to outsiders.

I wholeheartedly agree that parents who weren't scouts as a youth lack sufficient information to choose it over T-Ball, or even at all (time suck, relatively high cost of entry, no apparent unique benefit).

I concur that we don't see scouting in public like we used to, or even how we see everything else now in a fractured media scape. We do parades, but there's little contact with the public.

I've advocated that BSA should build small movies, around lifesaving events, or Scouting competitions, and put those in the movie theatre where folks are mostly stuck and share those to volunteers.  Kinda hard to sell Scouting when folks have little perception of what it is (or dislike what they perceive it has become).

 

Edited August 20 by BinTharDunThat

[fred8033]

22 hours ago, Navybone said:

But that is not all scouting is.  Its mission is: "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."   Going back in time, the mission of Boy Scouts has not just been about outdoors, that is the method.  It has been about developing young men (and now women) into resilient and useful members of society. 

Previous mission/purpose statements From Wikipedia (just did a quick search):

1910: "to teach [boys] patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred values.

1937: "Each generation as it comes to maturity has no more important duty than that of teaching high ideals and proper behavior to the generation which follows.

From the Congressional Charter: § 30902. Purposes
The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

Our arguments might not be incompatible.   

The methods all work together.  It's not that you use one method at a time.  The patrol method overlaps with the outdoor method to have patrols planning and doing outdoor adventures.  It's adult association overlapping with the outdoor method to get scouts outside being active.  

The methods working together achieve the mission.  It's like Baden-Powell said:  Advancement is like a suntan.  Something you get naturally whilst having fun in the outdoors.  We achieve patriotism, courage, self-reliance, kindred virtues, etc by getting scouts active outside having adventures.  The nature of working together to solve the challenges of outdoor adventures instills the BSA values in the scouts.  

To be blunt, the outdoor adventures and time with their friends is what attracts scouts (and parents).  The values are why BSA says it exists.  The values are important to the parents, but many parents would argue baseball, football and hockey support the same values.  BSA is unique and special because of the outdoor method to install the values. 

IMHO, the rest is a mush to try to be everything to everyone. 

 

 

 

 

[Tron]

On 8/20/2024 at 2:41 PM, Eagledad said:

Well said.  I disagree, but well said. 

I used to poll the scoutmasters at Woodbadge with a few basic questions like: "Have you read the SM Handbook? What is the BSA Mission Statement? What are the Three Aims and Eight Methods? It's safe to say that only extreme scouting nerds know the Mission Statement.  I don't think it works for or against the motivation of parents.

I used to teach leadership, and one of the subjects we discussed was creating mission statements. A mission statement's intent is to focus on an idealistic goal, guided by valued principles toward that goal. Not just scouting, but all mission statements. Mission statements are short and easy to understand. Building ethical and moral decision-makers using the Scout Law is idealistic and provides the principles of the Scout Law to focus on the direction of the goal.  

As I said, most adult Scouters don't even know there is a mission statement. Our PLC knew it because I explained that everything we did in the program was intended to guide scouts toward the goal of making moral and ethical decisions. And if I could not explain to their understanding how part of the program didn't lead them to that goal, I would take it out. Uniforms was their first test, LOL. I won.

Mission Statements are required as a compass to guide the rest of the program in one direction when others unintentionally try to force change. However, mission statements are only the bricks of the program structure; a plan (cement) is also required to strengthen the program's integrity. Ah, that's where the Aims and Methods come in. Aims are used by the adults for measuring the scouts' performance of the Eight Methods, which are the responsibility of the scouts. There is a method to the madness,

No, the scouts don't discuss instilling the values of the scout oath and law much because it would put them to sleep in a program designed for adventure. And let's remember, scouting is an adult program intended to turn youth into adults of character. So, they don't have to be wise in the complexity of developing character. They only need to play the game to develop character habits. 

I agree, but I think the issue is who the customers are that we need to sell to. Everyone is pointing at the Scouts. But mom and dad put most of their sons and daughters into the program. Most scouts never had a choice until they got older. I don't want to take away from marketing adventure, everyone likes adventure. But Mom and Dad need more than adventure. Actually, I think they had it up until recently because Character has always been part of the reputation.

What I'm hearing from many parents who were scouts is that the program is changing away from the program they were experienced and not for the better. What I'm hearing from parents who weren't scouts as a youth is that they don't know enough about the program to choose it over T-Ball. There just isn't much of marketing of scouting going on.

Here is an example of marketing that would grab the attention of parents:

Also, I've noticed that we don't see scouting in public like we used to. They are not in Scouting For Food around here anymore. Thousands of scouts from ages 5 to the real-old out in the neighborhoods volunteering for a great cause. That was great marketing. Parades? Where are the scouts? 

We seem to agree on most things. I wanted to share my perspective on where we differ. 

Barry

Everything you're talking about here speaks to the lack of quality control/inconsistency of quality control in BSA. BSA could learn A LOT from Scouts UK about leadership quality control; BSA's next big challenge is making sure trained leadership is present instead of all the tweedle dee's and tweedle dums. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

On 8/20/2024 at 2:41 PM, Eagledad said:

There just isn't much of marketing of scouting going on.

This definitely seems to be true. 

I see a lot of synergy between the zeitgeist and Scouting, so since nobody else seems to be doing it a few people on our pack committee who are committed to scouting like myself are doing our own marketing in the neighborhood to make sure parents know we're here. We're getting some tips from a council marketing program also. We have a strong committee with mostly people who were scouts as youth, all of whom recognise the movement they grew up in, and hear from many parents who weren't scouts that they are surprised at how well the movement overlaps their views and what they want for their child... once they find out. We've had a lot of interest in our join night. We'll find out how well what we did worked in two weeks.

We've had several new-to-scouting families really discover and appreciate scouting before this current marketing push, so I am convinced that the interested families are out there - we just need to find them, and that is going to take a heck of a lot more communicating and community-building that is currently happening. We will Do Our Best with the time we have and the resources we've got! 🫡

[BinTharDunThat]

It’s great that your Pack is developing and deploying marketing which works for you.  It often seems Council relies too heavily on unit-developed marketing or unit deployment of national print and video materials.  Many successful national franchises (BSA is effectively a franchise) run market-wide market-specific adverting to benefit all franchisees (units).  I wish Council would do the same, leveraging beascout.org.  It used to be a thing (see,e.g., 

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

I agree, a national campaign would be great. That's almost certainly going to be necessary for long-term overall growth. But in lieu of that, I am going to be a Juliet, as the Girl Scouts say. I'm not waiting.

[BinTharDunThat]

Concur.  Can’t wait.  My Eagle Scout spent the day before Jr yr started as the Cub recruiter for his old pack at his elementary school with videos and a trifold.  Gotta keep the Pack going to keep the Troop going.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

I did Meet the Teacher night at the school that we meet at, and just like during popcorn sales I can see that many in the general public have not registered that Scouting America is no longer gender segregated. (A number of people must therefore also not even have registered that female scouters are old hat even here.) I am constantly telling people (seemingly for the first time) that family packs exist. That Scouting America is for both girls and boys hasn't percolated into the general public consciousness. Even that messaging is falling to units. I will take on that as well, of course, but you're completely right in that it's not the most impactful approach. It's going to take a generation apparently at this rate.

[Eagledad]

Well, National better do something quick because changing the name to Scouts BSA adds more confusion to a population that isn’t keeping up with the changing program. 

The name itself is confusing; the program is no longer just for boys, so keeping BSA in the name seems weird. 

If National changes the uniform, it’s over. Nobody will know who they are.

My advise, from experience, is running a great local program will get the most attention from outsiders. But, great programs are the result of creating activities outside the expectations of the printed program. Adventure, Adventure, Adventure. 

Barry

[mrjohns2]

46 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

 

Well, National better do something quick because changing the name to Scouts BSA adds more confusion to a population that isn’t keeping up with the changing program. 

 

I’d assume, with no inside info, the name will change again. I assume it won’t still be Scouts BSA when the main org changes. 

[BinTharDunThat]

To be clear, the concept that BSA is "changing the name" is inaccurate.  Because its a federally-chartered, a name change truly requires "an act of Congress" as any such change must pass through the House, and pass through the Senate, and be signed by the President of the United States.  Instead of a name change, the BSA plans to (has not yet) adopt an assumed name, a doing business as (DBA), of Scouting America.  

I assume, given the current use, the existing trademark registration, and the ill will that would be associated with a further rebrand of the "older youth program" that Scouts BSA will continue to be the name of the program.   The settlement agreement could also figure into that.

Section 4 of the Settlement Agreement and Release between GSUSA and the Boy Scouts of America provides that "The BSA will continue to use the name 'Scouts BSA' for its older youth program and neither the BSA not the GSUSA will change their respective names to just "Scouts" for 10 years."  (Public document)