Unit Commissioner as both Committee Member and ASM in same Troop?

[JoeSmith]

Our Troop has a Unit Commissioner (new) who is an ASM in the Troop and also a Committee Member in the Troop. The CC did not appoint him to the Committee (someone with admin privileges must have done that). My understanding was that, with the exception of the COR, no adult can hold two registered positions in the same Troop. The UC says he's a Committee Member by virtue of being a UC and that he chooses to be an ASM. I had a look at the registration guidelines and googled a bit, but do not see an exception to the no-two-positions rule for a UC. I'd appreciate some insight. 

[OaklandAndy]

Well that's just funky. You are correct, only the COR can hold 2 positions within a unit. Being a UC does not automatically make you a committee member by any virtue. They can be an ASM or CommMem, but not both, at least not on paper. If they are wearing multiple hats and fulfilling different roles, that's one thing, but still only 1 position on paper. At least that's my understanding. 

If it becomes an issue, that would be something your CC and COR to discuss. 

[mrjohns2]

2 hours ago, JoeSmith said:

The UC says he's a Committee Member by virtue of being a UC and that he chooses to be an ASM.

Well, that isn't really true. UC's are not committee members of the unit they are commissioners for. They are "external" to the unit. He should no longer think of himself as a committee member (by choice or by default). UC's are more than welcome to ATTEND committee meetings for the units I am involved in. is quite odd for a UC to be an ASM in the troop that are UC for. He should find a unit with a different UC and swap units. One really wants the UC to be an external resources for that "outsiders" view of where to improve and to be someone to bounce ideas off of. 

So to review:
-Member of committee as UC? No.
-UC for a Unit the UC is an ASM? No.
-Stay as ASM? Sure, just find a new unit to UC for

[SSScout]

"It depends"....

I was a Cubmaster, and then a ASM when Scoutson aged up.   As an "alumnus" of the Troop (earned my Stegasaurus Husbandry Merit Badge), the Troop very graciously pays all my fees. 

I went to take Woodbadge.  Some of my tickets concerned Cub Scouts, but I was told my tickets had to deal with my "current" registration, BOY Scouts....  What to do?  ummmm. AHA ! (they said) you can be a Commissioner, they can deal with any part of BSA stuff !. Wonderful. What's a Commissioner? I had never heard or seen or met one....    Paperwork...  PRESTO ! I was a Unit Commissioner for my home Troop.   And so it goes...   

"The work is done by whoever shows up".   Committee?   Boards of Review?   Our dedicated Troop CCh asks and often needs folks to fill in.  So long as they are a registered Scout adult/ parent, and not the Scout in question's parent, and never the SM,  the BoR will happen, and the Committee meeting will happen.  

Edited August 12 by SSScout

[Eagledad]

Where this gets complicated is when the adults use the positions to forced unwanted policies and changes on the unit. I’ve seen the same problems with sponsor representatives. On the other hand, Kind of hard for a scouter to not get somewhat involved, especially if they have a lot of experience. The problems arise when the commissioner card is pulled out to force an outcome.

Barry

[scoutldr]

To be clear a Commissioner's job is with the District and reports to the District Commissioner.  They have NO authority in a unit for any reason.  But we all knew that.

[fred8033]

@Eagledad is right.  This is a repeated pattern.  ... I'm not saying this is your situation.  ... "Sometimes" scouters who are dis-empowered or voiceless or wanting more influence, sign up as a unit commissioner to get "perceived" as having extra influence / authority / connections.  BUT, unit commissioners really have zero authority.  They are supposed to be a wise, soft voice of an elder, experienced scouter.   I'm not saying it's your situation, but it could be.

• UC is a district role ... not a unit role.  
• UC has no right to attend committee meetings ... unless invited by the unit.
• UC has no right to be registered in the unit.  

Sometimes districts sign up current unit members as unit commissioners to get UC coverage in all the district units.  This enables districts to look good, but adds zero value.

If you feel strongly about it, it's okay to push back.  You can let the scouter know that he can be an ASM or a committee member or a UC; but not multiple.  Let the scouter know that If he wants to be a UC, then he won't be a committee member or ASM; ... and ... that he won't be on the troop internal leader communication list.  ... IMHO, I wish I had the guts to do that in a volunteer org.  I have no trouble at work, but in volunteering orgs it's harder. .... It's a good thing to have people cleanly defined in their titles.  

Edited August 13 by fred8033

[Jameson76]

19 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Sometimes districts sign up current unit members as unit commissioners to get UC coverage in all the district units.  This enables districts to look good, but adds zero value.

Our district wanted our unit to name someone to be the "commissioner" for our unit.  We pointed out that this seemed to be just a pencil whip of the position.  What value would someone currently active with the unit bring to the unit?  Shouldn't a commissioner be a neutral party to help and advise the unit as needed?

District did not get back with us.

[Double Eagle]

Trying to be brief on this.  UC is a district level position as stated by Fred8033.  The appointing authority (differs often between councils) for unit commissioners should not assign (in my.scouting.org) his UC duties in a unit he is part of.  UC ideally should have 3-5 units assigned to them.  UC visiting unit meetings may be needed if a reported problem exists, but 99% of the time are invited.  UC should be a coach, teacher, mentor, and doctor for units and mostly adults/committees.  Commissioners should stress the Journey to Excellence scoresheet as a thermometer for units to self-assess before a detailed assessment (minimum 2 per year) and simple assessments (done after almost every UC-units contact) are done by a commissioner.

Short version:  That UC should not hold a position in the same unit assigned to him. 

[HashTagScouts]

During my time as Committee Chair, the UC would meet with me and the SM when they visited during a weekly troop meetings. Anything related to the unit, and what assistance we could use on items such as recruitment or program, we would discuss with the UC and bring back to the Troop committee as needed. A good UC is primarily focused on what the Council is doing and how the Council can support the unit, not how the sausage is being made at the unit level. In other words, the UC is not there there to be an HR manager and oversee every individual unit leader, they are there to be a coach to the unit leader to get the optimal outcome for the unit to flourish.

Council (and by extension of the Council organization as fitting, District) should provide a UC to each unit, but it is not that each unit should provide a UC. UCs within our district do serve multiple units. Some may serve units that they used to belong with, but by-and-large those who serve as UCs generally are not hyper-active with any unit any longer (where they are still registered Scouters, they may still, depending on the individual, come and attend Pinewood Derby, Klondike Derby, OA events, etc.) as "district-at-large" representatives.

This job description is good resource:

NCST-Unit-Commissioner-Job-Description.pdf (scouting.org) 

[Eagledad]

The typical cause of low-performing UCs is the District Commissioner. For many reasons (e.g., bad training, self-promotion, incompetence), DCs force the UCs to perform on their personal motivation without proper training, expectations, and accountability. Training sets minimal expectations, and Leadership drives performance—or lack thereof. 

To be fair, we should understand that volunteer organizations have a limited pool of motivated talent for the positions of the organization. Underperformers don't typically have bad intentions. They just aren't managed properly.

In general, highly performing units in highly performing Districts are the result of highly performing District Commissioners. They are rare, which is too bad because the District Commissioner has the most power of any position in the District (including the DE) to build high-performing units. 

Barry

Edited August 14 by Eagledad

[scoutldr]

9 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Our district wanted our unit to name someone to be the "commissioner" for our unit.  We pointed out that this seemed to be just a pencil whip of the position.  What value would someone currently active with the unit bring to the unit?  Shouldn't a commissioner be a neutral party to help and advise the unit as needed?

Pencil whipping the requirements for Quality District.   

[Tron]

On 8/14/2024 at 1:49 PM, Eagledad said:

The typical cause of low-performing UCs is the District Commissioner. For many reasons (e.g., bad training, self-promotion, incompetence), DCs force the UCs to perform on their personal motivation without proper training, expectations, and accountability. Training sets minimal expectations, and Leadership drives performance—or lack thereof. 

To be fair, we should understand that volunteer organizations have a limited pool of motivated talent for the positions of the organization. Underperformers don't typically have bad intentions. They just aren't managed properly.

In general, highly performing units in highly performing Districts are the result of highly performing District Commissioners. They are rare, which is too bad because the District Commissioner has the most power of any position in the District (including the DE) to build high-performing units. 

Barry

I've volunteered and led many non-profit/fraternal groups over the years; working mostly locally but in a few cases at the state and semi-regional level. Motivation is really simple. Motivation is never the problem, people are already volunteering, they are exhibiting motivation already. The biggest problem that BSA has is that BSA generally does not understand that volunteers are motivated in other ways than financial. When a volunteer gets shat on they retract from volunteering and if the situation does not resolve they move to one of the dozens of other groups asking them for their time. Volunteers are motivated through their ethos; if the organization is not in alignment with their ethos they move on. BSA in some cases holds onto some volunteers who are not in ethos alignment because of the volunteers children; however, we have all seen how once those kids age out or eagle out the volunteer disappears like batman escaping the police (which leaves the local BSA entities hanging). 

Specific to commissioners I will say that my council has a very low performing commissioner corps; my district probably has one of the worst commissioner corps in the nation. What has killed commissioning in my council is that the council has repeatedly told the commissioners that their mission is something different than what the training says the commissioner mission is. We can't keep commissioners, we get a couple people to sign on as commissioners, they do the training, they learn about some knots and other uniform flair, they earn their flair, and by that time they are already burnt out and pissed that they are being told to do things no outlined in the training or commissioner college materials so they quit and move on to patting their knots and saying that they tried.

[mrjohns2]

What are they being told is “in scope”, but is not?

[Eagledad]

2 hours ago, Tron said:

Specific to commissioners I will say that my council has a very low performing commissioner corps; my district probably has one of the worst commissioner corps in the nation. What has killed commissioning in my council is that the council has repeatedly told the commissioners that their mission is something different than what the training says the commissioner mission is. We can't keep commissioners, we get a couple people to sign on as commissioners, they do the training, they learn about some knots and other uniform flair, they earn their flair, and by that time they are already burnt out and pissed that they are being told to do things no outlined in the training or commissioner college materials so they quit and move on to patting their knots and saying that they tried.

Yep.

The Key 3 (DE, District Chairman, and District Commissioner) are supposed build the district program around the Council vision using the training provided to all the District Committee  Chairmen. The idea works great on paper, but you can see the risk of success simply by the important players in the design. The likely hood of a district with a well performing DE, District Chair and District Commissioner all at the same time is very rare.

Recruiting is an under-respected skill that leads to low performing people being put in positions that require high performance for successful outcomes. The best I ever saw our district perform was from a DE who knew how to recruit talent for the key district positions. I asked how he did it, he said he would go to unit activities and watch the people who made things happen. Then I recruit them. Sounds simple, but it’s not. 

Barry