New Cub Scout requirements are up - denner?

[mrjohns2]

7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Time for a dedicated volunteer corp.  Linux is based on volunteer maintenance.  BSA could do similar with leadership materials.

They could. The volunteer corp, for the most part, just gives each other awards vs. really doing the heavy lifting many would be willing to do. 

[Tron]

A lot of good points; but the PDFs are not even available to print on demand and are not maintained. GTA is a mess, with about 2 dozen sub pages with hacked together updates. I would totally go with, hey come here and grab the PDF and take it to kinkos if you want. 

[BetterWithCheddar]

I've recently been doing some planning for my son's Wolf Den and am finding that I appreciate the streamlined requirements. It will make our Den meetings a little more open-ended and allow me to tailor them to the kids' interests and the activities available in our region. Further, since there is overlap year-over-year, we may dedicate some Pack meetings to addressing requirements for all grades. This should help weaker Packs who lack suitable Den Leaders - now they can lean more heavily on the leaders who have been keeping the program alive.

My only gripe (and it's a big one): The program is just too long. 6 years of Cubs is a lot. They should have used the re-vamp to push 5th graders to Scouts BSA and make the 4th Grade Webelos program the capstone / transition year. The kids like identifying with an animal and color every year, but we lose a little branding polish when we switch to "Webelos" and then "AOL."

[OaklandAndy]

On 9/7/2024 at 5:48 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

The kids like identifying with an animal and color every year, but we lose a little branding polish when we switch to "Webelos" and then "AOL."

Completely agree. It's a big deal for the little ones. We "solved" this issue by letting them pick out their squad patch (dragon, moose, etc.) and come up with a creative name. It seems to be working as we retain most of our older kids who've been in the program for 3+years at that point. 

[mrjohns2]

4 hours ago, OaklandAndy said:

squad

Squad?

[OaklandAndy]

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

Squad?

Patrol, my bad. Dang military slang is still hard to get rid of after all these years. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

On 9/7/2024 at 4:48 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

Further, since there is overlap year-over-year, we may dedicate some Pack meetings to addressing requirements for all grades. This should help weaker Packs who lack suitable Den Leaders - now they can lean more heavily on the leaders who have been keeping the program alive.

I've got a field report on this potentially very good aspect of the new program. I'm sure more will roll in as we all execute it, but as Cubmaster of a pack with one particular den that's tiny and without a parent willing to step up to lead it I'm quite keen on seeing how I can lift some advancement into pack meetings as well as provide that tiny den with a quality program without overloading anyone.

We tried doing the "vanilla" swimming adventures as a pack during our annual pool party, and it mostly worked well. In particular, the adventures are structured such that we basically dangle loops/pins as a reward for really engaging with Safe Swim Defense and executing the scout-tangible parts completely. We have never had such scout focus on swimming safety at that pool party! So, thumbs up on that part.

However, the suggested activities that were worksheets were less engaging, shall we say. We got through it, but I can see that whoever wrote the Webelos swim defense worksheet didn't know some voodoo magic that I don't when it comes to making fun worksheets for kids. I think I will continue to try to come up with non-worksheet activities, but the success of the structure is perhaps more important.

We also knocked out the cardio requirement of the personal fitness adventures at the first pack meeting. Super easy and fun for the scouts, all done at once. Thumbs up. In fact, if we do some more silent hiking in the hiking club, we can also move that requirement out of den meetings, leaving only 15 minutes of strength training for den meetings! (We made the health form reviews homework if families didn't do it when asked at the first pack meeting also.) We've knocked some of those out first thing before for multiple dens, and that was very hectic and crazy. This is much better.

[Eagledad]

On 9/7/2024 at 4:48 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

My only gripe (and it's a big one): The program is just too long. 6 years of Cubs is a lot. They should have used the re-vamp to push 5th graders to Scouts BSA and make the 4th Grade Webelos program the capstone / transition year. The kids like identifying with an animal and color every year, but we lose a little branding polish when we switch to "Webelos" and then "AOL."

This has been a pretty common discussion for 30 years. I researched and found that most families leave scouting mainly because of burnout from the Pack program. Less than 50 percent of second-year Webelos cross over to the troops. They leave because their program, led by burned-out adults, is boring. 

Many folks suggest moving 5th graders to the Troops, but I am skeptical because of their maturity. The first-year troop scouts have the highest dropout rate of any group in the program, and I am concerned that 5th-grade scouts would worsen the problem. 

The Tiger-age scouts need to be moved out of the pack program because their toddler maturity (reading, patience, and listening) doesn't fit in with the maturity of the rest of the scouts. 

I could see a hybrid program for the second-year Webelos in which the troops could assist with it. Even just meeting at the same location as the troop during a troop meeting makes a difference. A weak leader could easily ask for assistance during a difficult meeting, and the Webelos could watch the older scout program in action. I've experimented with the Hybrid approach, and it works if the troop is on board.

While I'm glad National is trying to streamline the program, I am disappointed to learn they didn't shorten the Cub years. I'm sure they've heard the complaint because it is discussed often, and I personally complained to National about it 25 years ago. I think they are afraid to lose the Tigers, but I'm confident that membership would increase at all program levels within five years. 

Barry

 

Edited September 10 by Eagledad

[MattR]

6 hours ago, Eagledad said:

 

I could see a hybrid program for the second-year Webelos in which the troops could assist with it. Even just meeting at the same location as the troop during a troop meeting makes a difference. A weak leader could easily ask for assistance during a difficult meeting, and the Webelos could watch the older scout program in action. I've experimented with the Hybrid approach, and it works if the troop is on board.

I'd push that just a bit further. Make webelos start a year earlier and last a year longer, so 4 years instead of 2. A lot more new scouts are afraid of the outdoors because fewer parents camp, so they're even less mature than before. So make the program about getting them ready to camp with a troop. And as you said, make it part of a troop. If a webelo is mature enough to move to a patrol when they're 11 then go for it, but most aren't. Anyway, as part of a troop they'd still have their own program but they'd see the scouts, get to know them and the transition would be easier.

If this were done than cubs could be skipped all together. Yeah, I know, that will go over like a titanium balloon (lead's not so healthy ). So, end of my 1 1/2 cents of wisdom.

[BetterWithCheddar]

On 9/10/2024 at 1:03 PM, Eagledad said:

Many folks suggest moving 5th graders to the Troops, but I am skeptical because of their maturity. The first-year troop scouts have the highest dropout rate of any group in the program, and I am concerned that 5th-grade scouts would worsen the problem. 

The Tiger-age scouts need to be moved out of the pack program because their toddler maturity (reading, patience, and listening) doesn't fit in with the maturity of the rest of the scouts. 

If I could wave a magic wand, I would:

• Shorten the Cub Scout program by moving 5th graders to the traditional Scouting program. Webelos then becomes the transition / capstone year after Lions, Tigers, Wolves, and Bears. Yes, Kindergartners probably lack the maturity to fit with the rest of the Cubs, but SA will lose youth to other programs if they don't recruit kids when they begin elementary school. Keep it simple for the Lions and Tigers. Then layer-on more outdoor activities for the Wolves and Bears.
• Shorten the traditional Scouting program to grades 5-8.  Middle school has traditionally served as the "core" Scouting experience anyway. This cuts down on repetitiveness and helps mitigate the YP issues associated with combining children of wide age ranges (or the expectation that older Scouts "babysit" the younger ones).
• Combine the resources of the OA and Venturing to create a new Senior Scout program that blends elements of cheerful service, comradery, and outdoor adventure. Each district would sponsor a Senior Scout unit (similar to an OA chapter). Senior Scouts who earned the Life Rank with their troops could continue to work on their Eagle rank until age 18. Create a limited set of Senior Scout awards to keep the youth with a high need for achievement engaged. Use this pool of Scouts to help staff council and district events (but not free manual labor).

[DuctTape]

38 minutes ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

If I could wave a magic wand, I would:

• Shorten the Cub Scout program by moving 5th graders to the traditional Scouting program. Webelos then becomes the transition / capstone year after Lions, Tigers, Wolves, and Bears. Yes, Kindergartners probably lack the maturity to fit with the rest of the Cubs, but SA will lose youth to other programs if they don't recruit kids when they begin elementary school. Keep it simple for the Lions and Tigers. Then layer-on more outdoor activities for the Wolves and Bears.
• Shorten the traditional Scouting program to grades 5-8.  Middle school has traditionally served as the "core" Scouting experience anyway. This cuts down on repetitiveness and helps mitigate the YP issues associated with combining children of wide age ranges (or the expectation that older Scouts "babysit" the younger ones).
• Combine the resources of the OA and Venturing to create a new Senior Scout program that blends elements of cheerful service, comradery, and outdoor adventure. Each district would sponsor a Senior Scout unit (similar to an OA chapter). Senior Scouts who earned the Life Rank with their troops could continue to work on their Eagle rank until age 18. Create a limited set of Senior Scout awards to keep the youth with a high need for achievement engaged. Use this pool of Scouts to help staff council and district events (but not free manual labor).

I understand and agree with the problems. I disagree with your magic wand solution.

I also would shorten cubs, but have it 3rd-6th grade. I am a teacher and 6th graders are more like elementary kids, itbis more pronounced in the boys.

7th and above for scouts. At this point, both boys and girls are flexinv their wings but need significant guidance. The scout led program with older scouts (high school age) provides this guidance naturally. The younger scouts look up to the HS age and mimic what they see&do. If the HS age scouts are no longer present in your solution, the system becomes adult-led. There might only be a few HS aged scouts, but that is ok. They are the leaders of the troop. 

[Tron]

On 9/10/2024 at 7:19 PM, MattR said:

I'd push that just a bit further. Make webelos start a year earlier and last a year longer, so 4 years instead of 2. A lot more new scouts are afraid of the outdoors because fewer parents camp, so they're even less mature than before. So make the program about getting them ready to camp with a troop. And as you said, make it part of a troop. If a webelo is mature enough to move to a patrol when they're 11 then go for it, but most aren't. Anyway, as part of a troop they'd still have their own program but they'd see the scouts, get to know them and the transition would be easier.

If this were done than cubs could be skipped all together. Yeah, I know, that will go over like a titanium balloon (lead's not so healthy ). So, end of my 1 1/2 cents of wisdom.

It really depends on the scouts, over the past handful of years I have seen scouts that were not ready at 11 crossover and then drop; yet, I have seen 2 high functioning 10 year olds crossover and outperform older scouts at the troop. Last January I saw a 10 year old tent alone during troop winter camp while several 13-15 year olds needed to tent with their parents due to lack of winter camping knowledge and fear. It really depends on the scout and the program currently has a bit more flexibility to push those higher functioning 10 and 11 year olds up asap which is nice. It would be good if there was a better way to manage 11 and 12 year olds that are not ready for the troop.

12 hours ago, DuctTape said:

I understand and agree with the problems. I disagree with your magic wand solution.

I also would shorten cubs, but have it 3rd-6th grade. I am a teacher and 6th graders are more like elementary kids, itbis more pronounced in the boys.

7th and above for scouts. At this point, both boys and girls are flexinv their wings but need significant guidance. The scout led program with older scouts (high school age) provides this guidance naturally. The younger scouts look up to the HS age and mimic what they see&do. If the HS age scouts are no longer present in your solution, the system becomes adult-led. There might only be a few HS aged scouts, but that is ok. They are the leaders of the troop. 

It makes sense to shorten cubs from a viewpoint of what is best for a single child scout or when evaluating a scout in isolation; however, we have to remember that the younger ranks were added due to tag along siblings. Those tag along siblings are going to be there no matter what, and so they experience burnout regardless of registration situation. What we have seen over time is that it is better to capture those youth into the program at k5 - 2nd grade and let them maturate as scouts instead of having them develop a distaste to the program from being locked out due to their age. 

[BetterWithCheddar]

My son's Pack held its first Pack Meeting on Tuesday. Officially, we had a kick-off and informational meeting in September, but this was the first one with a true program. We elected to cover the Bobcat Adventure in its entirety since it's required for all grades. In hindsight, this was a terrible idea. It felt like night school.

To compound the issue, we had two failing Packs rolled into our own healthy Pack - this brought our total Scout Count from 45 to 85 and our leader count from 8 to 9. My son's Wolf den, which had averaged 6-7 kids during Lions and Tigers, now stands at 20. Mercifully, one of the new parents offered to assist in an unofficial capacity.

[Armymutt]

I've been digging in even further and the changes make little sense, at least at the Bear level.  One can complete Cub Scouts without ever touching a knife.  However, one must figure out a way to raise a flag on a flag pole.  Seems to me that it's far easier and simpler to pick up a knife at Walmart than it is to purchase and install a flag pole.  Now I have to run around and beg some organization to let me use their flag pole or figure out something else.  For me, the simplest solution will be to last some sticks together, but most parents don't have the pioneering knowledge to do that.  

[mrjohns2]

10 hours ago, Armymutt said:

One can complete Cub Scouts without ever touching a knife. 

They can? Each rank now has a knife safety adventure.