What is it about the BSA that has allowed it to survive?

[qwazse]

On 5/24/2024 at 11:30 PM, SiouxRanger said:

… Third, senior scouts headed to Philmont or another high adventure experience may well replace a good deal of all their prior gear.  Generally looking to reduce weight.
…

We have enough backpacks and tents in circulation from alumni scouts, that we now encourage first-years to borrow from our “gear library” until they figure out exactly what they want.

I think that is a metaphor for what remains BSA’s strength. Here are a series of parts, practices, and techniques that can be passed from generation to generation.

[skeptic]

[fred8033]

On 5/24/2024 at 9:39 AM, JSL3300 said:

Maybe the small expense was once a draw (When my boys started in 2018, it was $33 for national, $42 pack fee and that wasn't even very long ago!) but that's in the past. 

Yep.  When our first son started in 2000 (2001?), the cost was way way way less. I think registration for him was $12?  Plus $5 for a year of Boy's Life?   Plus, another $12 for the adult leader app?  It was reasonable.  Add a Tiger cub shirt and minor items; reasonable cost.

Ten years ago when I had four sons and my wife and I were registered ... and active ... we were easily spending $5,000 a year.  A high adventure a year.  Four summer camps.  Campouts every month for at least two kids.  Activities.  Uniforms.  etc, etc.  ...

I can't imagine what the cost would be now.

Edited May 28 by fred8033

[DannyG]

Registration and dues $200/year. Summer camp $500+. New complete uniform $150. Monthly camp fees and gear, averages $50/month, say $600/year. High Adventure $2500.

It costs around $1200-$1500 per year per scout, +$2500 if going on a high adventure trip. The troop fundraises year-round to offset some of the costs.

[RememberSchiff]

On 5/22/2024 at 3:32 PM, Cburkhardt said:

What is it about the BSA that has allowed it to survive?

The BSA as a whole (from the unit through national levels) has processed significant challenges during the past thirty years.  For purposes of this posting I include the discrimination lawsuits (Dale v. BSA, etc.), changes to membership standards, institution of YPT, youth abuse lawsuits, inclusion of girls in Cubs and Scouts, COVID, bankruptcy, establishment of the Summit and rebranding.  It would seem impossible for a not-for-profit organization to survive such a combination – yet the BSA moves forward. 

What attributes of the BSA have allowed it to withstand thirty years of existential challenges?  Let’s focus on organization attributes and avoid discussing what might have been done differently (that is covered in many other postings).

As we saw through the pandemic, it was/is through the volunteers who carry the fire that scouting continues.

Quoting A. J. Kierstead opinion from recent Concord (NH) Monitor  

"In moments like this I am unbelievably grateful for the decentralized nature of the scouting program. Councils, districts, and units hold the most responsibility for what the scout does when they show up to an event or meeting. Tips are given to help leaders navigate the extensive curriculum, but there are many online resources we rely on that expand upon that base...

In my experience, councils, districts, and units are not a reflection of the nonsense we see at the national level. Scouting America will continue to be the corporate arm of one of the best citizenship and community building programs in the world. I will stay involved to make sure sanity is not lost in my little corner of the program, while hopefully raising the awareness of those who have not fully considered the implications of what this programming means."

Well said.

[rallybug]

57 minutes ago, DannyG said:

Registration and dues $200/year. Summer camp $500+. New complete uniform $150. Monthly camp fees and gear, averages $50/month, say $600/year. High Adventure $2500.

It costs around $1200-$1500 per year per scout, +$2500 if going on a high adventure trip. The troop fundraises year-round to offset some of the costs.

Very council-dependent, and age of scout etc.

In comparison, for my scout who just crossed over: $86 registration (no dues), summer camp is $100 this year (troop covering the remainder through fundraising), other monthly local 1- or-2-night camps are $10 per night, his uniform was bought for Webelos with much room to grow into, so that will be a while.

As a family, we've bought, for him, a tent, hike shoes, hike boots, wet weather gear, going to need a better sleeping pad than my 20-year old Therm-a-Rest 😄and we'll gradually upgrade stuff as we need to (for him and me..)

[DannyG]

22 hours ago, rallybug said:

Very council-dependent, and age of scout etc.

In comparison, for my scout who just crossed over: $86 registration (no dues), summer camp is $100 this year (troop covering the remainder through fundraising), other monthly local 1- or-2-night camps are $10 per night, his uniform was bought for Webelos with much room to grow into, so that will be a while.

As a family, we've bought, for him, a tent, hike shoes, hike boots, wet weather gear, going to need a better sleeping pad than my 20-year old Therm-a-Rest 😄and we'll gradually upgrade stuff as we need to (for him and me..)

Yes. Fundraising helps. Even though my scout can cost up to $1500 annually, I really pay less than half out-of-pocket because of unit fundraising. Just trying to be open and generic to the amount it really costs to scout. Many councils have instituted their own council fee above the $85 national membership. In effect they can charge up to $85 more. And every unit I have been a part of charges their own dues for patches and costs. That's how I estimate $200, but it really doesn't cost me that much out-of-pocket to register. 

You can reduce the uniform cost by reusing old uniforms. Buy it a couple sizes bigger so your scout grows into it over a few years. Sometimes you can them at a Goodwill store or Ebay. Borrow a uniform. Our troop has an old uniform bin so any of our scouts can borrow one.

We went crazy with personal gear at crossover, so now we just have to replace what gets broken or lost. Plus the shoes he grows out of every year. We even bought a hiking backpack to carry all his gear, but we found out the troop doesn't really go on any backpack trips until a Philmont crew cycles around every 3 years or so. 

[fred8033]

33 minutes ago, DannyG said:

Yes. Fundraising helps. Even though my scout can cost up to $1500 annually, I really pay less than half out-of-pocket because of unit fundraising. Just trying to be open and generic to the amount it really costs to scout.

Agreed.  Fundraising can mitigate the cost as it can in sports and other programs too.  The cost discussion started because of asserting scouting is a good value compared to other programs like sports.  Since those programs can also fundraise to reduce cost, the comparison is best done on raw cost.  What is the family cost before it is reduce by unit fundraisers.  I'd still argue scouting is a great program, but not necessarily cheaper at all.  If your scout is active, it costs money.

[rallybug]

Our eldest does Code Ninjas (learning to write code in C#, Python, Java for things like Minecraft mods) - that costs $220 a month.

Our youngest (just transitioned to a Bear) does karate three times a week, I think that was $3k for 2 years.

[skeptic]

57 minutes ago, DannyG said:

Yes. Fundraising helps. Even though my scout can cost up to $1500 annually, I really pay less than half out-of-pocket because of unit fundraising. Just trying to be open and generic to the amount it really costs to scout. Many councils have instituted their own council fee above the $85 national membership. In effect they can charge up to $85 more. And every unit I have been a part of charges their own dues for patches and costs. That's how I estimate $200, but it really doesn't cost me that much out-of-pocket to register. 

You can reduce the uniform cost by reusing old uniforms. Buy it a couple sizes bigger so your scout grows into it over a few years. Sometimes you can them at a Goodwill store or Ebay. Borrow a uniform. Our troop has an old uniform bin so any of our scouts can borrow one.

We went crazy with personal gear at crossover, so now we just have to replace what gets broken or lost. Plus the shoes he grows out of every year. We even bought a hiking backpack to carry all his gear, but we found out the troop doesn't really go on any backpack trips until a Philmont crew cycles around every 3 years or so. 

If that crew is a regular thing, it would be a good idea if the unit was prepping regularly, not just when the crew comes along.  

[Eagle94-A1]

On 5/22/2024 at 3:32 PM, Cburkhardt said:

What is it about the BSA that has allowed it to survive?

1. Legacy members and Volunteers. 

I grew up in the Scouting program, and the SM and ASMs were the "father figures" I looked up and sought advice from. My fellow Scouts were like brothers to me. In essence Scouting was my surrogate family. I continued on as a Scouter even when I had no kids, because I NEEDED to give back. There was no way I could ever repay my SM and ASMs for every thing they did for me. Closest I could do is give back.

When I did have kids, I wanted them to have some of the same experiences and joys that I had as a Scout, and if possible even better ones.

But the program is not the same as it was. The program has been watered down. Instead of adventure, the focus is now "Getting Eagle." The old standard of advancement was " Master the skills" and "The badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (emphasis added), not what he has done." Now the standard is "A badge recognizes what a Scout has done toward achieving the primary goal of personal growth. " Look at the number "academic" requirements in MBs, as well as purely academic MBs there are these days.  And with National saying they will be "Simplifiying" the Scouts BSA program, there are a lot of concerns, including from BSA "cheerleaders" like Mike Walton about watering down the program further.

And let's not forget the bad treatment of longtime volunteers by not only pros, but also newer volunteers. I have given examples in other posts of the mistreatment of experienced Scouters by pros. But go on some of any social media website, including this one, and you will have newer volunteers denigrating and insulting experienced volunteers and their concerns. I know I have been told in person and online that "you don't know what you are talking about," "(citation from G2SS, G2Am, etc) is wrong you can do..." and 'Scouting needs to change with the times."

So a lot of volunteers , especially on district and council levels, are throwing in the towel. And trust me, it is EXTREMELY hard to replace them with folks witht he same knowledge, skills, abilities, time, and treasure.

2. Nostalgia.

When you hear the terms "Scout," "Eagle", etc folks get images of the Norman Rockwell paintings and  Follow Me, Boys.  Scouting over the years has done so much good, that it has a positive image.

Sadly the paper-pushing is slowly changing that adventure into another classroom.

Worse, the dark side of Scouting is making an appearance, and folks are applying today's standards to activities 40+ years ago. Falsifying membership has slowly been coming out. The biggest obviously is the CSA Scandal. Whether you agree it is BSA's fault or not, it has hurt BSA.

[InquisitiveScouter]

34 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

1. Legacy members and Volunteers. 

I grew up in the Scouting program, and the SM and ASMs were the "father figures" I looked up and sought advice from. My fellow Scouts were like brothers to me. In essence Scouting was my surrogate family. I continued on as a Scouter even when I had no kids, because I NEEDED to give back. There was no way I could ever repay my SM and ASMs for every thing they did for me. Closest I could do is give back.

When I did have kids, I wanted them to have some of the same experiences and joys that I had as a Scout, and if possible even better ones.

But the program is not the same as it was. The program has been watered down. Instead of adventure, the focus is now "Getting Eagle." The old standard of advancement was " Master the skills" and "The badge represents what a Scout CAN DO (emphasis added), not what he has done." Now the standard is "A badge recognizes what a Scout has done toward achieving the primary goal of personal growth. " Look at the number "academic" requirements in MBs, as well as purely academic MBs there are these days.  And with National saying they will be "Simplifiying" the Scouts BSA program, there are a lot of concerns, including from BSA "cheerleaders" like Mike Walton about watering down the program further.

And let's not forget the bad treatment of longtime volunteers by not only pros, but also newer volunteers. I have given examples in other posts of the mistreatment of experienced Scouters by pros. But go on some of any social media website, including this one, and you will have newer volunteers denigrating and insulting experienced volunteers and their concerns. I know I have been told in person and online that "you don't know what you are talking about," "(citation from G2SS, G2Am, etc) is wrong you can do..." and 'Scouting needs to change with the times."

So a lot of volunteers , especially on district and council levels, are throwing in the towel. And trust me, it is EXTREMELY hard to replace them with folks witht he same knowledge, skills, abilities, time, and treasure.

2. Nostalgia.

When you hear the terms "Scout," "Eagle", etc folks get images of the Norman Rockwell paintings and  Follow Me, Boys.  Scouting over the years has done so much good, that it has a positive image.

Sadly the paper-pushing is slowly changing that adventure into another classroom.

Worse, the dark side of Scouting is making an appearance, and folks are applying today's standards to activities 40+ years ago. Falsifying membership has slowly been coming out. The biggest obviously is the CSA Scandal. Whether you agree it is BSA's fault or not, it has hurt BSA.

To help the organization survive in a state that they want (instead of looking for ways to change it for the better), BSA professionals expel dissenters.

Although dated, here is a blog which elaborates on this: (not a Daily KOS fan, in general, but I do read stuff there to learn how others think...)

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2006/3/4/191709/-Supressing-Dissent-in-Boy-Scouts-a-model-for-the-GOP

From the writing:

"The combination of lap dog boards and control of senior and middle volunteer management positions give the pros an immensely powerful position from which to block reform (and protect their own positions).  It will take a grass roots rebellion or a determined legal attack at the top to actually reform the system nationally.  Small determined groups with strong ethics and strong stomachs can achieve local results but, unless the tide shifts nationally, the system always tries to return to the old status quo."

Edited May 29 by InquisitiveScouter

[SiouxRanger]

 

48 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

From the writing:

"The combination of lap dog boards and control of senior and middle volunteer management positions give the pros an immensely powerful position from which to block reform (and protect their own positions).  It will take a grass roots rebellion or a determined legal attack at the top to actually reform the system nationally.  Small determined groups with strong ethics and strong stomachs can achieve local results but, unless the tide shifts nationally, the system always tries to return to the old status quo."

Precisely and absolutely true.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

To help the organization survive in a state that they want (instead of looking for ways to change it for the better), BSA professionals expel dissenters.

Although dated, here is a blog which elaborates on this: (not a Daily KOS fan, in general, but I do read stuff there to learn how others think...)

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2006/3/4/191709/-Supressing-Dissent-in-Boy-Scouts-a-model-for-the-GOP

From the writing:

"The combination of lap dog boards and control of senior and middle volunteer management positions give the pros an immensely powerful position from which to block reform (and protect their own positions).  It will take a grass roots rebellion or a determined legal attack at the top to actually reform the system nationally.  Small determined groups with strong ethics and strong stomachs can achieve local results but, unless the tide shifts nationally, the system always tries to return to the old status quo."

Sadly I know one of the SEs mentioned in the article. He threatened a volunteer's son with not getting Eagle if the volunteer didn't do what he was told.  And I have seen first hand volunteers removed for questioning SEs.

Edited May 29 by Eagle94-A1

[DannyG]

3 hours ago, skeptic said:

If that crew is a regular thing, it would be a good idea if the unit was prepping regularly, not just when the crew comes along.  

As it is now, the troop starts preparing 18 months - 2 years out. I'd keep the backpacking/hiking activity ongoing, several trips a year, if it were entirely up to me.