Coed Troops

[qwazse]

33 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Of course we did backpacking. And our leaders made us divide up that whole heavy monstrosity to carry with us.

At the time I thought it was ridiculous, but now as a leader I think it was in part for budget reasons (the reason given) but also in part to prevent miscellaneous interpersonal problems by keeping the whole patrol together.

Did you winter backpack? We always used our “circus tent” (actually a donation from the national guard) for winter campouts. It was the best way to keep an eye on younger scouts for hypothermia and frostbite. General health and safety might have also been your leaders’ concern.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

10 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Did you winter backpack? We always used our “circus tent” (actually a donation from the national guard) for winter campouts. It was the best way to keep an eye on younger scouts for hypothermia and frostbite. General health and safety might have also been your leaders’ concern.

No, it was a summer model without a wood stove, but all the combined body heat also did help on chilly spring, summer, and fall nights. We did lie right next to each other (resulting in quite a bit of trying not to step on your patrolmates when you needed to pee in the middle of the night), helping hold on to our warmth. But backpacking with a cast iron wood stove and fuel for it would have been a bit much 😄

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

This isn't a big difference, but since so few others on the forum scouted gender integrated themselves I'll write it out also - sometimes we ditched the tent when backpacking and brought two tarps to construct a lean-to either on private land with permission to take a few .. what's the English word for young tall tree about as thick as a wrist? anyway, them, or where the SM had dropped the precut tall thin debranched trees for us to work with in advance.

But this didn't really change how we slept in terms of relative body location - it's even more important to huddle together in the lean-to than a tent, especially if the.. what's the English word for the slow-burning parallel log fire that makes the "heat curtain" at the open end of the lean-to? anyway, the heat curtain fire doesn't burn that strong, the cold creeps in now just sideways but from your feet too, so nobody ever suggested anything different from the whole patrol in the same lean-to.

[BetterWithCheddar]

On 5/7/2024 at 4:05 PM, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Such wonderful news! Finally, US scouting normalizes. 

It's OK for us to be a little different. For all our troubles, the US is still exceptional in many respects. We've gifted the world airplanes, the telephone, the internet, Post-It notes, and sliced bread. Clearly, we're getting a few things right over here. 🙂

 

21 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

The presence of both genders in the patrol was both a moderator of antisocial behavior in both genders as well as a key condition of real-world leadership training.

I respect that your experience may have been different from mine and believe yours to be valuable too, but most kids in the US already get 8 hours of mixed-gender interaction in school. Many extra-curriculars, aside from athletics, are also integrated. Boys and girls already have ample opportunities to interact.

The single-gender path for youth in that difficult pre-teen stage is actually one of the few value propositions that the BSA (SA?) offers. Aside from athletics, where else can they still have that experience?

[RememberSchiff]

7 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

... sometimes we ditched the tent when backpacking and brought two tarps to construct a lean-to either on private land with permission to take a few .. what's the English word for young tall tree about as thick as a wrist?

sapling

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

1 hour ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

The single-gender path for youth in that difficult pre-teen stage is actually one of the few value propositions that the BSA (SA?) offers.

TBH when Scouting America announced that they would allow girls to join, but hastened to add gender -separated still to preserve the benefits of that, my immediate thought was "what benefits?" They never even explained what they were meant to be, and until encountering this anxiety about girls in Scouting America I had never heard of all these problems with doing things together with the opposite gender at any and all ages, not just in scouting but anywhere.

Well, I take that back - I have heard about it from refugees. But from my Swedish POV their complaints sound like optional problems to have, since nobody else is having them, not even all refugees. I hear what they're saying, but it doesn't 'click' with my own experiences and the fact that the ones with issues with people doing things with the opposite gender are also from countries with little respect for women doesn't help endear me to their angst. My own experiences with men from those countries easily top my personal 'most sexist experiences' list. I mention this so that you know that this "genders need to be separated" idea is in my mind strongly associated with sexism with the intent to disenfranchise women, take away our freedom to do as we please, and treat us like sex objects. I'm not saying that everyone talking about the need for gender separation in any circumstance ever, but because the association is so strong you should be aware that it's there. The subject triggers it.

It's like that for me also with this boys need their own space line of thinking I hear people express here. It doesn't seem to be 'boys' as much as 'some boys', and I'm not entirely sure what the problem is exactly. My best guess is social anxiety based on what I've read. It's not a problem everyone is having. People allude to it but rarely get specific enough to problem-solve, and the correlation between more sexism and more gender separation is the elephant in the room.

I'm assuming that your sincere personal intent is not to be sexist? Would you be willing to explain what was happening for you that made you want to retreat from girls?

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

sapling

Even if they're 2-3 m tall? I thought saplings were much smaller.

[RememberSchiff]

12 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

sapling

Even if they're 2-3 m tall? I thought saplings were much smaller.

Definitions vary, but generally a sapling is defined as within a diameter (less than 4-5 inches) at a certain height (4.5ft) aka the diameter breast height (dbh) and not by the height of tree. Saplings can be quite tall (over 10ft) depending on species, sun exposure, and soil condition.

Height of Tallest Saplings in 10 year old Appalachia Hardwood Clearcuts

https://www.fs.usda.gov/ne/newtown_square/publications/research_papers/pdfs/scanned/OCR/ne_rp381.pdf

[skeptic]

2 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

TBH when Scouting America announced that they would allow girls to join, but hastened to add gender -separated still to preserve the benefits of that, my immediate thought was "what benefits?" They never even explained what they were meant to be, and until encountering this anxiety about girls in Scouting America I had never heard of all these problems with doing things together with the opposite gender at any and all ages, not just in scouting but anywhere.

Well, I take that back - I have heard about it from refugees. But from my Swedish POV their complaints sound like optional problems to have, since nobody else is having them, not even all refugees. I hear what they're saying, but it doesn't 'click' with my own experiences and the fact that the ones with issues with people doing things with the opposite gender are also from countries with little respect for women doesn't help endear me to their angst. My own experiences with men from those countries easily top my personal 'most sexist experiences' list. I mention this so that you know that this "genders need to be separated" idea is in my mind strongly associated with sexism with the intent to disenfranchise women, take away our freedom to do as we please, and treat us like sex objects. I'm not saying that everyone talking about the need for gender separation in any circumstance ever, but because the association is so strong you should be aware that it's there. The subject triggers it.

It's like that for me also with this boys need their own space line of thinking I hear people express here. It doesn't seem to be 'boys' as much as 'some boys', and I'm not entirely sure what the problem is exactly. My best guess is social anxiety based on what I've read. It's not a problem everyone is having. People allude to it but rarely get specific enough to problem-solve, and the correlation between more sexism and more gender separation is the elephant in the room.

I'm assuming that your sincere personal intent is not to be sexist? Would you be willing to explain what was happening for you that made you want to retreat from girls?

Even if they're 2-3 m tall? I thought saplings were much smaller.

And here again we see reality in the U.S.   Somehow, not sure we can pinpoint the change, our cultural viewpoints relating to interactions of youth at "those critical years" got skewed to paranoia, rather than growth and learning to deal.  Maybe like the concept of the glass half full or half empty?  Something less than positive happens somewhere and it is hyped by media and people with skewed reasoning and becomes an issue where it really is not the norm, nor usually a problem.  Then the fear mongers grab it and make it worse.  Then somebody does a "study", one preordained in most cases, and it escalates to that paranoiac state.  Or so it may be from my eight decades of watching and listening and experiencing.  

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

TBH when Scouting America announced that they would allow girls to join, but hastened to add gender -separated still to preserve the benefits of that, my immediate thought was "what benefits?" They never even explained what they were meant to be, and until encountering this anxiety about girls in Scouting America I had never heard of all these problems with doing things together with the opposite gender at any and all ages, not just in scouting but anywhere.

Western Society has focused on girls and women for the past 40+ years. Even the current studies that say girls need all girl environments at times, neglects the fact that boys need it as well.  It's on my to read list, after I finish my current series, but A SELF MADE MAN, written by a women who impersonated a man for 18 months, discusses how society is so focused on women, that the mental, physical, and social needs of men are completely neglected. The author's  conclusion:  "I really like being a woman. ... I like it more now because I think it's more of a privilege."

 

Quote

Well, I take that back - I have heard about it from refugees. But from my Swedish POV their complaints sound like optional problems to have, since nobody else is having them, not even all refugees. I hear what they're saying, but it doesn't 'click' with my own experiences and the fact that the ones with issues with people doing things with the opposite gender are also from countries with little respect for women doesn't help endear me to their angst. My own experiences with men from those countries easily top my personal 'most sexist experiences' list. I mention this so that you know that this "genders need to be separated" idea is in my mind strongly associated with sexism with the intent to disenfranchise women, take away our freedom to do as we please, and treat us like sex objects. I'm not saying that everyone talking about the need for gender separation in any circumstance ever, but because the association is so strong you should be aware that it's there. The subject triggers it.

Part of having a discussion  is the ability to leave your prejudices behind and listen folks are actually saying.
 

Quote

It's like that for me also with this boys need their own space line of thinking I hear people express here. It doesn't seem to be 'boys' as much as 'some boys', and I'm not entirely sure what the problem is exactly. My best guess is social anxiety based on what I've read. It's not a problem everyone is having. People allude to it but rarely get specific enough to problem-solve, and the correlation between more sexism and more gender separation is the elephant in the room.

Not really. Folks find their ways But what is upsetting is when boys lose their safe spaces, but girls do not. Some areas, like athletics, boys have their own space because of Title 9 forcing to have equal number of women's sports. But even then that can hurt boys. I know one university who had enough interest to field teams in two different sports, but because there was no interest by girls to increase their number of sports, those guys had to stick with being in a "club league" and not be a varsity team.

More later.

 

[yknot]

Once BSA moved to admit girls, it should have changed the name to reflect its dual membership. Once BSA decided to accept girls' membership dollars, and charge girls the same fees that it charges to boys, it had a duty to make sure the general program experiences and opportunities were similar. That's what a well managed, functional organization would do. If it didn't want girls, and it didn't want their membership numbers and their membership dollars, then it would have made sense to retain the old name and the old perspectives and live with that. But that's not what the organization did, and girls are now part of the organization and have been for six years. It is past time for the name to change and for units and patrols to be non gendered. I used to think non gendered units only needed to be an option, but that is still extremely limiting especially when you see some of the recent comments. Girls who are crossing over to a troop and paying the same dollars should have the same opportunity to find a unit as boys do, but right now they don't. I do think that the organization, in its typically dysfunctional way, has completely mismanaged the addition of girls to scouting since its launch in 2018. Its regrettable that it has become such a distraction from other issues that BSA is also mismanaging equally well through poor leadership. A lot of these issues around girls should have been resolved six years ago around the time of their addition, and not now while there are more serious post-bankruptcy issues that BSA, or I guess now SA, needs to be focusing on, like preventing more SA. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

And here again we see reality in the U.S.   Somehow, not sure we can pinpoint the change, our cultural viewpoints relating to interactions of youth at "those critical years" got skewed to paranoia, rather than growth and learning to deal.  Maybe like the concept of the glass half full or half empty?  Something less than positive happens somewhere and it is hyped by media and people with skewed reasoning and becomes an issue where it really is not the norm, nor usually a problem.  Then the fear mongers grab it and make it worse.  Then somebody does a "study", one preordained in most cases, and it escalates to that paranoiac state.  Or so it may be from my eight decades of watching and listening and experiencing.  

That's what this looks like to me. Obviously being young can be rocky and the adult world needs to offer compassionate and skillful support, but I am curious about why this just wasn't a thing when I was that age myself and now it is.

[Eagle94-A1]

15 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

 this just wasn't a thing when I was that age myself and now it is.

2 reasons.

1. Guys will always hide their feelings, emotions, and turmoil. Especially when when trying to make an impression on similarly aged females. But even as adults the societal norm is that men need to be the tough, unemotional and independent, despite that folks say otherwise. Sadly I know folks who have major physical and emotional traume, and when they go to their wives or significant others, they have been told to deal with it themselves, or worse divorced because the health issue caused roles to be reversed. Their support is all men's groups, and even then some of this doesn't get discussed.

2. Since it didn't affect you directly, you never noticed. This has been around for quite some time.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Part of having a discussion  is the ability to leave your prejudices behind and listen folks are actually saying.
 

 

Thanks.

Barry

[BetterWithCheddar]

20 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I'm assuming that your sincere personal intent is not to be sexist? Would you be willing to explain what was happening for you that made you want to retreat from girls?

@AwakeEnergyScouter, I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

At that age, there wasn't anything that made me want to retreat from girls. In fact, my developing brain was probably pushing me toward them. Scouting gave me an opportunity to turn that part of my brain off for the weekend and enabled me to better absorb my troop experience. I didn't have to worry about body odor, acne, getting my hair just right, or "peacocking" (strutting around with my feathers out to ward off competing males). I don't think I was any less prepared for my adult life because I had been interacting with female peers in school since I was 5. The BSA just gave me a temporary reprieve from the pressures of puberty and allowed me to enjoy being 12.

[InquisitiveScouter]

Another random thought...

When we offer the option of fully coed Troops, will there be an ongoing need for Venturing?