Scouting America

[qwazse]

5 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

So, SO awkward though. And... doesn't feel true. The absolute vast majority of people are cis. Nobody - literally nobody - thinks that cis girls are boys, so how can they be boy scouts?  …

@AwakeEnergyScouter I feel your perplexity. But, that’s only because you’re not the first European scout who I’ve dialogued with. Americans thrive (wallow?) in paradoxes. The YMCA is chock full of non-Christians and women. My brother went swimming at the YWCA. Everybody in my town has participated in Jewish community center activities. None of that makes anyone feel trans or religion-fluid. Likewise, girls don’t shed their femininity being in programs for boys. For some it’s a status symbol.

Being on-the-ground with American youth revealed this peculiar mental framework. When I started my Venturing Crew almost 20 years ago, the girls — especially Girl Scouts — who signed up were thrilled to be Boy Scouts. One told me as much and I had a hard time convincing her that she was a Venturer! There is something very valuable for many young women in this country to know that this “for boys” organization lets them work their program.

I think it partly had to do with a “victim mentality” foisted upon them by activist types. GS/USA’s “girl power” mantra sort of plays off of that. In BSA, nobody told them they had any special powers. They could work the goals of this program (or not) and nobody made them feel like they were some kind of revolutionary. (Most GS/USA leaders who I knew avoided the whole “girl power” rhetoric. It was the literature that gave off an “us vs. them” vibe.) So, for some young American women, being a girl in Boy Scouts of America carried more prestige than being a young woman in Scouts BSA or Scouting America.

Who really wanted there to be Scouts BSA Handbook for Girls  and a Scouts BSA Handbook for Boys? No youth ever! All my boys get the one for boys (although I’ve offered to get them the one for girls if they wanted). I’d be curious to know how many girls there are who, given the choice, would ask for the “for Boys” edition.

[Tron]

On 10/2/2024 at 12:24 PM, Eagledad said:

Are you saying an option for full coed or single-gender patrols or just full coed?

I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe National knows something you don't.

Barry

I mean just go full coed. How hard is this. The GTSS and YPT can handle the tenting and buddy system issues quite easily. 

[Armymutt]

1 hour ago, Tron said:

I mean just go full coed. How hard is this. The GTSS and YPT can handle the tenting and buddy system issues quite easily. 

I think it should be up to the unit.  All Scouting is local.  Forcing coed situations on children who are not ready for such a thing can drive them out of the program.  Let boys be boy and girls be girls.  They already have to change their behavior at school to avoid some social faux pas that will follow them for years.  Scouting should be an escape from that society, not an extension of it.  Of course, with the increase of classroom requirements, maybe Scouting is destined to simply be school part 2. 

[PACAN]

Sure let's give boys and parents another reason to leave scouting.  The assumption is that the G2SS and tenting are nirvana and the only barriers.    

[Eagledad]

2 hours ago, Tron said:

I mean just go full coed. How hard is this. The GTSS and YPT can handle the tenting and buddy system issues quite easily. 

Not everyone wants coed.

Barry 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

2 hours ago, PACAN said:

Sure let's give boys and parents another reason to leave scouting.  The assumption is that the G2SS and tenting are nirvana and the only barriers.

The assumption is that boys and boy parents don't want to scout with girls. That's obviously not generally true (most scouting programs are fully coed, and I personally know boys and boy parents in Scouting America that want to scout with girls so it can't be the case that all the anti-girl scouts congregated in this NSO), so this claim needs quantification and justification to be taken seriously.

[jscouter1]

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

The assumption is that boys and boy parents don't want to scout with girls. That's obviously not generally true (most scouting programs are fully coed, and I personally know boys and boy parents in Scouting America that want to scout with girls so it can't be the case that all the anti-girl scouts congregated in this NSO), so this claim needs quantification and justification to be taken seriously.

I disagree, I think that most boys do not have an issue with it, HOWEVER from my personal experience most boys want time with other boys without girls. For many boys this age it is a confusing time socially in many different ways, not just girls, and scouting is a great out from that, away from phones, in nature, wearing uniforms (no pressure on clothing choice), all meaning less pressure to act a certain way socially. And let’s be completely honest, majority of scouts are cisgender and would likely feel some of that pressure around people of the opposite gender. There is no issue with girls in scouts, but guys and girls should both have their time away from today’s social pressures and scouting provides that.

[skeptic]

1 hour ago, jscouter1 said:

I disagree, I think that most boys do not have an issue with it, HOWEVER from my personal experience most boys want time with other boys without girls. For many boys this age it is a confusing time socially in many different ways, not just girls, and scouting is a great out from that, away from phones, in nature, wearing uniforms (no pressure on clothing choice), all meaning less pressure to act a certain way socially. And let’s be completely honest, majority of scouts are cisgender and would likely feel some of that pressure around people of the opposite gender. There is no issue with girls in scouts, but guys and girls should both have their time away from today’s social pressures and scouting provides that.

This is a weak comment in that no reason having girls in Scouting America should keep the boys and girls from still having their own group sharing and so on.  Even in camp situations, the girls and boys can still group, especially since YP has barriers that need to be met.  Also, more acceptable social norms develop when adolescents need to be aware of each other on a broader front.  

[jscouter1]

22 minutes ago, skeptic said:

This is a weak comment in that no reason having girls in Scouting America should keep the boys and girls from still having their own group sharing and so on.  Even in camp situations, the girls and boys can still group, especially since YP has barriers that need to be met.  Also, more acceptable social norms develop when adolescents need to be aware of each other on a broader front.  

Sorry if I was unclear, I think that girls in Scouting America is great, I do not think that we should go ONLY coed units. There are a lot of benefits to that interaction and meeting over common interests like scouting can help de-stigmatize those relationships. Things like linked troops, and out of troop experiences (summer camp) can also achieve these without going strictly coed. Ultimately it should be up to each family and each scout what experience they want, whether that be coed or single gender and they should have that option.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

Also, more acceptable social norms develop when adolescents need to be aware of each other on a broader front.  

I admit I don’t understand this comment. Do all youth live in a cocoon except during scouting activities.

Except for sports, youth are coed in just about all their activities since the age for Mother’s Day out. in fact, I think one would struggle to get through a day without doing at least one coed activity.

Single gender scouting is not depriving anyone from developing awareness of the other gender on the broader front.

Barry

Edited Saturday at 02:55 AM by Eagledad

[skeptic]

2 hours ago, jscouter1 said:

Sorry if I was unclear, I think that girls in Scouting America is great, I do not think that we should go ONLY coed units. There are a lot of benefits to that interaction and meeting over common interests like scouting can help de-stigmatize those relationships. Things like linked troops, and out of troop experiences (summer camp) can also achieve these without going strictly coed. Ultimately it should be up to each family and each scout what experience they want, whether that be coed or single gender and they should have that option.

No need to apologize.  I am one of the older curmudgeonly leaders, really now emeritas.  But, I had the pleasure and frustration of seeing interactions not just in scouting recently, but also as a sub teacher where the youth displayed a lot of things I found myself watching and adjusting.  During a small number of outings we shared camp areas with girls and had combined fires, and one Easter break we were in Balboa Park and each night the leaders, ours and the GS next gate over had to monitor the youth.  My last week in summer camp three years ago was an interesting experience, but I saw little issue, though one young woman had to be spoken to by her leaders after some observations and actually youth complaints regarding here demeanor, shall we say.  Learning and growing; part of life.  Keeping them somehow separated is impractical at best, and asking for rebellion at the worst.  JMHO.

 

[BetterWithCheddar]

7 hours ago, skeptic said:

Also, more acceptable social norms develop when adolescents need to be aware of each other on a broader front.  

I don't disagree, but most kids get 40+ hours of mixed gender interaction each week through school. I'm not sure a 1-hour, single-gender Scout meeting each week leads to unacceptable social norms. In fact, I think it may be complimentary in that it gives them a reprieve from constant social pressures.

I'm not looking to re-hash old arguments. I've been generally supportive of the membership changes from the past decade. Coed Scouting works fine for Cubs and the Senior Scout programs; however, we're denying kids a development opportunity if we don't at least offer them the OPTION of single-gender Scout Troops. Middle school is rough.

[scoutldr]

16 hours ago, Tron said:

The GTSS and YPT can handle the tenting and buddy system issues quite easily. 

We thought it could handle pedophiles, too. Yet, here we are.

[skeptic]

9 hours ago, scoutldr said:

We thought it could handle pedophiles, too. Yet, here we are.

YP was not in place as it is today, and even early suggestions sort of related to "supervision" and so on were not focused.  And, while BSA did "something" to protect with IV files, it was still not an issue in the broader society. until probably the late fifties or early sixties forward.  Add in the messed up legal system and simple ignorance of much of the problem and we ended up where we are today.  Ironically, even in the midst of the uproar, the BSA YP was still held up as better than most other youth serving groups.  

[jscouter1]

10 hours ago, scoutldr said:

We thought it could handle pedophiles, too. Yet, here we are.

As an old scout leader once said, “what’s predictable is preventable”