New here, but not to scouting. Trying to help my kid's troop, but about to give up.

[Eloisefig]

Have been a den leader and a cubmaster. Woodbadge trained. My son joined a troop, and has been in it ~2yrs.  It's supervised neglect in my opinion. There is no ILST, PLC meetings are few an far between, with no guidance, agenda, etc. It's like lord of the flies.  I offered to help.  Scoutmaster(new to the position last year), said sure, and we talked about ideas, baby steps, while still allowing the scout led process.  Had a 1.5hr sit down with SPL and ASLP(2 deep leadership of course- myself and SPL dad/leader), to go over how to structure PLC, things they can do, how to structure meetings, how to delegate, how to let patrol leaders plan patrol activities, how to have patrol times set aside during meetings.  Can't get patrol leaders to show up to PLCs.  No agenda made(I didn't say anything). Offered to have a sit down with scoutmaster and patrol leaders, to go over their positions, what they can do/plan in their positions, until we can really get a dedicated time for ilst(you know how summer is).  Got no response. Scoutmaster hasn't even been there 2 of the last 3 meetings.  I also don't feel they are thorough enough in their merit badge requirements.  So much is just planned by adults.  I'm just over it, ready to leave, and find a troop that follows the patrol method more, and will help my son develop the leadership skills that scouting is known for. 

[MattR]

Welcome to the forum, @Eloisefig.

That's certainly no fun. It sounds like you've already made up your mind and I can't blame you. Good luck.

But I'm not sure how much better luck you're going to have elsewhere. It seems to me that every troop I know of is struggling.  Anyway, I few observations: In your meeting with the SPL and ASPL you dumped a whole lot of new ideas on them that they likely don't understand if they've never seen it before. Babies don't take smaller steps then older children, they stumble around and crash a lot. Sometimes they need to be caught before they crack their head. Keep that in mind. Hint: "baby steps" are smaller than you might think and you need to help them learn.

Next, you can't get PLs to show up. What's their incentive? I hate to say this but you expecting them to show up won't work. A bigger issue, and the reason I just left my troop, might be that there are no expectations about scouts that everyone in the troop understands. If you have a POR, you're expected to try and that means show up. If you're an older scout then you're expected to help out. Every scout in the troop is expected to go on a certain percentage of the campouts. Whatever, just decide and let everyone know. If the parents aren't in on this then you're out of luck.

Next, everything is planned by adults. Of course it is. That's because nobody can agree on what the scouts own and what the adults own. The easiest thing for the adults is to just plan it.

Next, SM isn't showing up. My guess is he's afraid of losing his job. Just a hunch, I've seen it a lot lately. Anyway, there may be a reason.

Next, MB's aren't up to par. Pick your battles. That one is not nearly as important as the others. Scouts enjoy a good program, they really don't care for the MBs unless they're well done. If you can work the MBs into the program then great, otherwise that's just a bridge too far.

If you can find a better run troop, that's fine. But what does your son think? If he has friends in the troop and you yank him out then you might win the battle and lose the war. Scouts that don't have friends in the troop when they're 14 just quit.

Finally, a caveat to all I've written. There are different ways to run a troop. Different people have different ideas on how best to do it. Different people get different results. Some people are sure they know the right way. I'm not. That said, here are some other observations. YMMV

Scouting is a drop in program when it should be a team (patrol) based program. If you don't show up someone else will deal with it. Besides, the only thing important is advancement and that's about as self serving as it gets. So, how to make the patrols more of a team and less a mob? Projects? Like 4H or robotics? Going on a hike or a campout just isn't enough anymore.

Scouting has so many little moving parts that it's really hard to keep track.. Advancement, OA, PLCs, camporees, high adventure, MBs, roundtables, recruitment, popcorn, uniforms, safety training, some excellence program, Courts of honor, patches, pins, the guide to advancement, and on and on and on. Can you deal with all of this, by yourself, in an hour or so a week? Of course not. But that's where this program needs to go. Two or three adults should be able to run a troop of 30 to 40 scouts. There is only one aim of scouting - get better at living the scout law. There's always room for improvement. There's one place to do that - the outdoors. Everything else is a distraction.

[qwazse]

One trick with PLC: instead of one lengthy meeting a month, consider reserving 15 minutes after the regular troop meetings. This basically gives boys just enough time for after action review and time to plan the next event. Not great, but if it increases attendance you’ll have double your time in terms of man-hours attendance.

[DannyG]

You have a vision. Now find a coalition and communicate it to them. Does your troop have adult committee meetings? That is where you discuss your concerns and find other adults willing to help. You are not going to fix this by yourself. 

[curious_scouter]

It's tough to turn a ship, it takes a lot of work.  It can also be risky to turn it too quickly:  Bad habits take time to correct and Scouting moves at Scouting speed - which can be frustratingly slow when you see that a lot of change is needed and your energy level for it exceeds those around you. 

SPLs serve for 6 months.  Start working with prospective future SPLs now.  Get them to NYLT.  Then THEY will ask for ILST, THEY will come to PLCs with agenda.  It's going to be tough to change things today.  But you have to start planting seeds. 

If you like the unit otherwise, keep going.  It takes TIME and PERSEVERANCE and REPETITION to change things like this but it'll come.  If you don't have the time or tenacity to see it through, you might not be happy there long term and you owe it to yourself and your son to find a place where you can enjoy scouting.  Or if your son is enjoying it in all its chaotic glory - maybe that's enough, you might be happier just being 'parent'.

 

[Eloisefig]

8 hours ago, DannyG said:

You have a vision. Now find a coalition and communicate it to them. Does your troop have adult committee meetings? That is where you discuss your concerns and find other adults willing to help. You are not going to fix this by yourself. 

Not really. The parents just sit in the other room. Scouting is the main topic of discussion but I either get the sense that they don’t think there’s a problem, or if they see it, they don’t want to help. CC(on his way out) and SM can say they welcome change as much as they want, but if they don’t support/back me up, the others just think I’m trying to take over. 

[Eloisefig]

6 hours ago, curious_scouter said:

It's tough to turn a ship, it takes a lot of work.  It can also be risky to turn it too quickly:  Bad habits take time to correct and Scouting moves at Scouting speed - which can be frustratingly slow when you see that a lot of change is needed and your energy level for it exceeds those around you. 

SPLs serve for 6 months.  Start working with prospective future SPLs now.  Get them to NYLT.  Then THEY will ask for ILST, THEY will come to PLCs with agenda.  It's going to be tough to change things today.  But you have to start planting seeds. 

If you like the unit otherwise, keep going.  It takes TIME and PERSEVERANCE and REPETITION to change things like this but it'll come.  If you don't have the time or tenacity to see it through, you might not be happy there long term and you owe it to yourself and your son to find a place where you can enjoy scouting.  Or if your son is enjoying it in all its chaotic glory - maybe that's enough, you might be happier just being 'parent'.

 

All good points. I’m just not feeling enough parental presence to even gather them to have a discussion. 
Mine are hoping to do NYLT in the winter, so I’ll need to get them ILST. I just feel like I’ve been sticking it out forever.  I’m definitely not a quitter, but I’m just getting a vibe. Our cubscout pack is completely opposite in terms of our adult leaders putting time in and working together. (Answering texts even!)

[Eloisefig]

9 hours ago, qwazse said:

One trick with PLC: instead of one lengthy meeting a month, consider reserving 15 minutes after the regular troop meetings. This basically gives boys just enough time for after action review and time to plan the next event. Not great, but if it increases attendance you’ll have double your time in terms of man-hours attendance.

Yup, I considered(and offered up) different options for plc meetings. They just weren’t happening before bc SM and SPL didn’t even call them. One good change that is bringing better attendance, is having them after the meeting rather than before. Still had no patrol leaders 😕 , but had some enthusiastic younger scouts.  That was really my first step- just trying to get them to have plcs, and actually get something decided at them. 
     Occasionally they do stuff in patrols, but that is rare. There are rarely breakout groups to discuss what rank requirements people need help with. 
I truly understand that it is a convoluted system that is hard for one scout to stay on top of for themselves, much less one scout helping others.  
I did see an idea on YouTube. It was someone’s woodbadge ticket(or one of them), where they basically made a syllabus that would come full circle every 2 years with all the requirements to first class.  I thought that was neat, but I couldn’t figure out how to find him. 

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, Eloisefig said:

...
I did see an idea on YouTube. It was someone’s woodbadge ticket(or one of them), where they basically made a syllabus that would come full circle every 2 years with all the requirements to first class.  I thought that was neat, but I couldn’t figure out how to find him. 

There are a number of helps for this sort of thing. Unfortunately, I can't point you to them! The site https://troopresources.scouting.org/ is undergoing an upgrade due out this month.

However, it's not too hard to leaf through the handbook and ask the scouts to pick a chapter to work on for the next coming month. Usuallly after summer camp the scouts' advancement starts to diverge, then the PLC's are about asking what is the skill that most boys in their patrol need to master, and how would they like adults to help with that.

DON'T focus on advancement per se. DO focus on skills to master.

[mrjohns2]

29 minutes ago, qwazse said:

due out this month.

That is good to hear! How dumb to take the old one down before putting the new one up. 

[DannyG]

17 hours ago, Eloisefig said:

Not really. The parents just sit in the other room. Scouting is the main topic of discussion but I either get the sense that they don’t think there’s a problem, or if they see it, they don’t want to help. CC(on his way out) and SM can say they welcome change as much as they want, but if they don’t support/back me up, the others just think I’m trying to take over. 

I would start talking to the other adults in the room. Do they like the program the way it is? If others think the program can improve they can help you. Do you know the CC succession plan? If I am CC and I have a SM that is absent every other week, I would be concerned. Are there registered ASMs/adults to keep 2-deep leadership? Or, you might have come across a group that thinks this is the way scouting goes, is happy with adults running the show, doesn't care for a strong PLC/patrol method... You will have to figure out if you can lead change in this group, or cut your losses and find a stronger unit.

[curious_scouter]

Another suggestion is ask the SM if it's okay if you plan and host ILST.  They might just be overwhelmed, maybe they are even unaware it needs to be done annually and is a pre-req for scouts wanting to do NYLT.  Or that it's their job to do it.  I know my first year as a SM was super overwhelming and I had been an adult scouter and ASM for many years before taking on the job.  The first year I was SM we didn't have OA elections - I didn't know I was supposed to request them and no one told me lol.  Oops!  Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance!

Make the direct offer with a case.  Once they let you do one thing and you do it well, you will find they have no problems letting you do more!    Probably.  Hopefully!

I empathize with your position.  It's not an easy spot to be in or to get out of.  You seem like a good leader, but sometimes that means feeling lonely and having the weight.  This too shall pass and things will gradually get better.  Scouting is also generational.  It's a blessing and a curse.  Next year you'll have new crossovers (probably) with new adults and you may find your people then.  Or someone presenting a headwind to you today find themselves busier with work in a few months and their absence means the bad habits they championed also fade a bit. 

[captkeating]

I certainly hear and appreciate your frustration, and I can tell that your frustration is from a commitment to have a thriving, growing, valuable program that works and helps the Scouts get the leadership and life skills that will truly make a difference for them.

I think that part of what inherently frustrating (potentially) about a program like this is that we are a volunteer army, and everyone, Scouts and adult leaders alike, are at varying levels of experience and leadership.  I know that when I said yes to being my son's den leader last year when he joined as a Lion, it had been decades since I was involved in the Scouts, and that was my first time as an adult leader.  I believe that Scouts and leaders at all levels are interested in and working on making Scouting the best program it can possibly be.  Personally, I'm excited about upcoming changes to the Cub Scout program to make it simpler, more focused, and more effective.  The acronyms you and others share in your posts make it clear to me that you are well-versed in the program and an expert on what a well-run program should look like.

So, far be it from me to offer you advice about how the program should be run.  It sounds like you're very clear about that already!  My suggestion is to try to change your mindset to look for the good in the program, to try to be patient with the areas that aren't working or are still in progress, and to try to be a resource to the other leaders and Scouts, understanding that it does take time, and nothing really changes overnight, but over time, with sustained effort, it absolutely can.  I'm clear I didn't run the Lion den last year or the Tiger den this year perfectly, but we've already had some great moments, and I'm lucky to be in a Cub Scout pack that is incredibly well-run and managed, and everyone has something to offer.  I had the privilege earlier this year to organize an off-site pack night where we toured our local police department, which was fantastic, and in last week's den meeting, where we took a "hike" (basically a walk around our local park), when we walked across a boardwalk over a local creek, we saw a snapping turtle, and it was really cool!

I believe that over time, you have the potential to be a serious force for good in your son's troop.  That being said, based on what you shared, certainly no one could blame you for finding another local troop that is better run.  For the sake of the program, I certainly hope you and your son don't give up on Scouting entirely!  Please let us know how it works out, and thank you for sharing!

[gpurlee]

captkeating - welcome to the forum