Measures of Success

[ramanous]

As a Scouter, what outcomes do feel are the best measure of success for a troop? What makes you feel good about the program? I don't mean JTE, but what personally do you strive for?

[Navybone]

Great question.  Not sure, but a good head scratcher.  Retention? If you assume you have a good program, scouts stay?  Otherwise they vote with their feet? 

[ramanous]

Of course, I doubt there is any perfect measure

The tricky thing about "voting with your feet", I think, is that some significant number of scouts will stay in a troop because their friends are there. And, that's a circular issue. So, to some degree, I think that may give some false indications until its too late (multiple families leave at the same time.) 

 

[DuctTape]

Growth in individual scouts. Seeing a new scout who can barely tie their own shoes develop into a patrol leader who plans, and leads their patrol on an overnight camping trip with adults only as drivers and required YPT.  And all the other iterations of similar growth.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

Indeed a great question! Almost like a goal writing prompt 😄

* Smiling and laughing scouts at all events / no one left out, all scouts "invited to dance" by other scouts

* Scouts want to hang out outside scouting because they're friends

* Good and excited attendance at all outdoor events, of which camping and hiking are offered monthly and other outdoors life skills (fishing, orienteering, firebuilding and tending, skiing, skating, etc) are offered at least occasionally. Troops should backpack at least a few times a year

* Troop goes to camporee/jamboree every year, at least considers going to next WSJ

* Scouts following the Scout Law, Scout Oath, Outdoor Code, and LNT consistently 

* At least basic knowledge of BP and the scouting movement as a whole, attend JOTA/JOTI

* Skills and automatic responsibility acceptance growth in individual scouts, especially in outdoors life and scout craft skills

* Scouts take pride in their advancement and set their sights in the next "level" of growth, whether there is a belt loop or badge for it or not (if you blew requirements out of the water, do even more!)

* Good ceremonies that touch the scouts wordlessly and feel special 

* Good windhorse in the committee as well as among the scouts

* Full year program

* Good community relationships

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

Forgot one of the most important things... Scout-led! Absolute must. Took it for granted while writing.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Forgot one of the most important things... Scout-led! Absolute must. Took it for granted while writing.

I agree, but I have never met a Scoutmaster who didn't think their troop was scout-led. 

I will come up with some things that made me feel really good about our program, but what makes scouting so great is that the rewards change as the program changes and matures. Look forward to those wonderful unexpected rewards too. Many are coming your way.

Barry

[ramanous]

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I agree, but I have never met a Scoutmaster who didn't think their troop was scout-led.

If you we're trying to explain Scout-led to another person, are there specific examples you could point out? The main reason I'm asking is that I'd really like to drill down into objective measures of success (if possible.) If we get too far into the weeds on this subtopic, we might be going off on a tangent from the OP but I'm thinking something like:

1) Scout starts & runs the troop meeting without an adult needing to speak ✅

2)

I've seen that Ladder of Youth Leader poster, which I think would be a great survey for a troop. So one measure might be how far up the ladder the troop has made it based on a group survey

[skeptic]

Thinking a bit more about this thread, I think we are speaking of a variation of answers.  Whose success are we perhaps trying to measure?  The obvious answer appears to be the success of the youth.  But we also can expand our discussion to the success of the adults who mentor the Scouts.  And, we also then are reviewing the success of the program, which is variable, depending on the membership involved, and also the actual program in play.  Each level and type of program and group may have different points of consideration, depending on how detailed we may choose to get.  Ultimately though, we may not really see that measure of success until much later, sometimes even decades.  One of the good things about hanging around for a long time is that I have been privileged to have a few past scouts speak directly to me about the positive things they realized, later.  We all have heard, or if fortunate have experienced that.  But I also have seen some youth fail themselves, and as an extension perhaps, our efforts.  And, while we may take that measure from our own perspectives, the youth and even their families may not see the same evidence, positive or negative.  

     The fiasco that has played in the press and in the program is too real, yet when we look at the larger picture, and speak to the majority that went through the program, that tragedy is NOT the true picture.  It is a dark spot or shadow that shaded into the overall successful program and lives of a very small percentage of the millions that have walked through.  It is the ever present worst element of human nature and society that we allowed to creep in.  But it does not negate the overwhelming positives, which reflect the brighter and better parts of human nature and society.  

     As I have now entered into my ninth decade, most of it having some touch of Scouting involved directly or peripherally, I mourn the known "failures", the youth that went down their own dark alleys, and the fine young people lost to things over which I, and we, have little or no control.  It still comes down to the foundation on which BP and his many cohorts built it.  Scout Spirit, when allowed to function, wins out.  Maybe immediately, or maybe a decade later when you meet a youth you thought you lost, and they spend an hour telling you how they finally got it, and say thank you.  Try to not dwell on the hard ones you know we lost, as I suspect most of the young people have better perspectives and are better parts of society, ones that in the best world would be running things.  JMHO of course.  

 

 

[DuctTape]

All good responses so far. I apologize for not including this phrase in my prior reply as I feel it is very important; others have hinted at it in their responses. I believe that Scouting done well is evidence of the truth of this statement. 

Not eveything that counts is measureable, and not everything that is measureable counts. (paraphrase of a quote often attributed to Einstein)

 

[MattR]

@ramanous , the most important one for me is whether the older scouts are looking out for the younger scouts. If the younger scouts don't look up to the older scouts then the troop will develop all sorts of problems from lack of participation, young SPLs that struggle while older scouts stay home, a lack of team work and just a real self centered attitude.

The term scout led really is too vague. What most adults think of scout led is scouts making plans. But leadership, good leadership, is all the little things like including the shy scouts and encouraging those that are struggling.  It's the essence of the Scout Law.

Once in place, this will feed itself as the younger scouts look up to the older scouts and eventually become those older scouts that give back to the new younger scouts.. However, getting it in place is hard because teenagers can get very self centered when given a chance. Tending this process was the most important and challenging problem for me as an SM.

Good luck.

[BetterWithCheddar]

I'm on board with the "vote with your feet" theory. Strong troops will have an incoming new scout patrol every year with a few active parents to offset the natural attrition of kids hitting high school or otherwise aging out of the program.

A strong troop can survive a "weak class" of scouts and parents, but can be derailed if they onboard 2 or 3 consecutive weak classes. A low number of incoming Scouts vs. prior years doesn't necessarily translate to a weak class if the scouts are well-behaved and the parents are willing helpers. Rather, the pitfall comes when troops onboard multiple scouts will behavior issues and parents who either don't support the program or whose presence becomes a net negative. 

How many potentially great Scouts either never made it past Cub Scouts or quit too soon because they had one or two disruptive peers that ruined their experience?

[ramanous]

To clarify, I am looking for measures of success of the youth from the perspective of a Scouter. For example, one of my least favorite measures is probably "How many Eagle Scouts did we produce during my tenure?" But, alternatively, one that I think might be good is "How many (percentage) of our Scouts made it to First Class?" I'm not really sure why I think that; its just a gut feeling at this point.

I do get that the answers to my OP are likely subjective by most standards, though my intent is to figure-out if there are reasonable objective measures. Certainly, too @Skeptics point, the best measure is probably something like "How many of our former adults participate in Scouting as adults, or introduce their kids to Scouting?" But, that's hard to track

I like @MattR's response, through its subjective or too general so I might ponder how that could be measurable. For example, retention of scouts after they make [First Class or Eagle or have been SPL]? Or, for that matter, age or rank at which a Scout becomes inactive?

I see too many kids that take the "Get Eagle, Get Out" path.

I'm just spitballing ideas.

 

[BetterWithCheddar]

8 hours ago, ramanous said:

To clarify, I am looking for measures of success of the youth from the perspective of a Scouter. For example, one of my least favorite measures is probably "How many Eagle Scouts did we produce during my tenure?" But, alternatively, one that I think might be good is "How many (percentage) of our Scouts made it to First Class?" I'm not really sure why I think that; its just a gut feeling at this point.

To that end, I'd suggest looking at how many scouts have been active up to high school (regardless of rank). If a scout has been in the program for 3-4 years, they've likely 1) enjoyed themselves and 2) absorbed most of the lessons the program offers.

[ramanous]

Good idea. I guess the general belief is that age 16 or High School is the make or break moment. Sticking around is a good sign that the scouts are enjoying themselves. Making it to First Class is a measure of program success. Any rank after First Class is more about individual ambitions. So,

• What is the retention rate of 16+ scouts?
• How many of our Scouts made it to First Class?

Edited April 15 by ramanous