Sharing campsite shower/restroom facility

[qwazse]

@Armymutt, I wouldn’t say that it’s the norm. I mean, wanting to “go full on papa bear” is one natural reaction in the context of all that we know about the prevalence of abuse among teens, and the disproportionate prevalence among females. It takes a while to balance out that protective streak with lived experience working with other leaders to deal with problems of substance.
So, it’s likely that this kind of thing will arise fairly regularly.

It isn’t all that new. And the behavior also happens in unisex environments. It probably has been happening in BSA and GS/USA since the 60s, contributing a little bit to scout resentment and the gradual membership decline that we’ve seen ever since.

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

@Armymutt, I wouldn’t say that it’s the norm. I mean, wanting to “go full on papa bear” is one natural reaction in the context of all that we know about the prevalence of abuse among teens, and the disproportionate prevalence among females. It takes a while to balance out that protective streak with lived experience working with other leaders to deal with problems of substance.
So, it’s likely that this kind of thing will arise fairly regularly.

It isn’t all that new. And the behavior also happens in unisex environments. It probably has been happening in BSA and GS/USA since the 60s, contributing a little bit to scout resentment and the gradual membership decline that we’ve seen ever since.

@Armymutt, I think you'd agree it's like being in the military:

The best thing about being in the military (or Scouts) is some of the people you get to work with.

The worst thing about being in the military (or Scouts) is some of the people you get to work with. 

😉 😉 😜 😜 😜 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

13 hours ago, qwazse said:

It isn’t all that new. And the behavior also happens in unisex environments. It probably has been happening in BSA and GS/USA since the 60s, contributing a little bit to scout resentment and the gradual membership decline that we’ve seen ever since.

Would you be willing to say more about this? 

[Jameson76]

4 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Would you be willing to say more about this? 

Well, in many cases it is subtle.  You can't really address this or you are "not supportive", so there is no real alternative other than to be disgruntled.  

- We have seen at camp the female troops request, dare I say demand, that certain bath houses be "female only".  Note these bathhouses are all setup with multiple locking single rooms in them, all open to the outside

- There have been requests at camp for some activities to be female only at times (water skiing, climbing wall to name a few), yet the narrative is we are all Scouts, so why the request for special consideration?

- Male scouts have been admonished by Girl troop leaders for taking roads / paths near the girls sites and told these are female only areas, again, the narrative is we are all Scouts, so why the demand for special consideration?

- At the camp we attend troops frequently share sites, some of the Girl troops have demanded not to share with a boy troop, and it has been acquiesced to, and in some cases the Girl troop got their own site, crowding other troops

- Have seen leaders from Girls troops demand additional spaces for their Scouts in horseback riding classes since this is what girls joined to do so BSA should be accommodating

- There have been the multiple first female Eagle, quickest female Eagle news releases over the last year, guess the boys earning Eagle are less now?

- There have been the multiple celebrations for 5 years of females joining Scouts, yet there are boy troops that 75 - 100 years old and no celebration.  Guess the boys are just here now and we celebrate the girls only.

- My Scouts saw the "Golden Eagle" term and were curious what that was.  Explained it was a girl who earned the GSUSA Gold Award and also the Eagle rank.  Their response, so they are being recognized for something we (the boys) are not able to do?

- Have seen on several forums questions as to why there is no Gold Award knot for BSA and Girls should be able to wear that on uniforms.  Not sure what awards from other organizations should be worn on BSA uniforms, maybe some Scouts can wear their varsity letters and National Honor Society pins?

Edited April 1 by Jameson76

[Armymutt]

I've also seen Girl-only Camporees.  That really gets to me.  Imagine if we had Boy-only Camporees these days.  More than one person actually defended it by saying that all of them were Boy-only prior to girls joining.  Seriously?  I fully support girls being in the program - my daughter loves it.  However, I insist that all events be open to boys and girls.  To do so otherwise is an insult to the members of BSA who are excluded.  Even our Catholic Camporee is open to everyone.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

5 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Well, in many cases it is subtle.  You can't really address this or you are "not supportive", so there is no real alternative other than to be disgruntled.  

- We have seen at camp the female troops request, dare I say demand, that certain bath houses be "female only".  Note these bathhouses are all setup with multiple locking single rooms in them, all open to the outside

- There have been requests at camp for some activities to be female only at times (water skiing, climbing wall to name a few), yet the narrative is we are all Scouts, so why the request for special consideration?

- Male scouts have been admonished by Girl troop leaders for taking roads / paths near the girls sites and told these are female only areas, again, the narrative is we are all Scouts, so why the demand for special consideration?

- At the camp we attend troops frequently share sites, some of the Girl troops have demanded not to share with a boy troop, and it has been acquiesced to, and in some cases the Girl troop got their own site, crowding other troops

- Have seen leaders from Girls troops demand additional spaces for their Scouts in horseback riding classes since this is what girls joined to do so BSA should be accommodating

- There have been the multiple first female Eagle, quickest female Eagle news releases over the last year, guess the boys earning Eagle are less now?

- There have been the multiple celebrations for 5 years of females joining Scouts, yet there are boy troops that 75 - 100 years old and no celebration.  Guess the boys are just here now and we celebrate the girls only.

- My Scouts saw the "Golden Eagle" term and were curious what that was.  Explained it was a girl who earned the GSUSA Gold Award and also the Eagle rank.  Their response, so they are being recognized for something we (the boys) are not able to do?

- Have seen on several forums questions as to why there is no Gold Award knot for BSA and Girls should be able to wear that on uniforms.  Not sure what awards from other organizations should be worn on BSA uniforms, maybe some Scouts can wear their varsity letters and National Honor Society pins?

I was wondering about "the behavior" (I assume going full papa/mama bear) in unisex environments, in case I might have been too quick to think that benevolent sexism was a factor, but even if there's a fuller picture of papa/mama bear behavior that goes a bit too far in single-gender environments as well as mixed-gender environments asking for female-only zones really shouldn't be happening. We are all scouts. That's not a narrative, that's how it is. Or, perhaps I should say, that's how it should be in a properly functioning scouting organization. I don't think that's subtle at all. I've never been in a female-only zone larger than a bathroom in my life, why do we need them in Scouts BSA?

Of course girls shouldn't be told they don't belong, but female-only areas are also a non-starter. Just like in OP's case, your camp leadership shouldn't be giving in to a single troop's unjustifiable demand. I find this ludicrous, since we all slept in the same tents, shared carrying the patrol gear, etc. Benevolent sexism may not be as immediately threatening as misogyny but it's still a problem. Equality in a scouting context means equal treatment and equal opportunities for male and female scouts.

1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

've also seen Girl-only Camporees.  That really gets to me.  Imagine if we had Boy-only Camporees these days.  More than one person actually defended it by saying that all of them were Boy-only prior to girls joining.  Seriously?  I fully support girls being in the program - my daughter loves it.  However, I insist that all events be open to boys and girls.  To do so otherwise is an insult to the members of BSA who are excluded.  Even our Catholic Camporee is open to everyone.

YES. OMG. What the heck is going on here? 😱 I think maybe there's been some confusion about how to solve the girls not being welcomed by all problem... Two wrongs don't make a right. 

[DannyG]

 

On 3/31/2024 at 5:22 PM, Armymutt said:

I haven't experience Scouts BSA yet, but I hope this isn't the norm.  This sort of behavior and actions can make Scouts resentful of the new paradigm of BSA.  

11 hours ago, Armymutt said:

I've also seen Girl-only Camporees.  

This is not the norm. I have heard talk of Girl-only camporees and summer camp, but I have yet to experience one. I have only good things to say about girl troops and adult leaders I have worked with.

If a unit wants to participate in girl-only events, they can schedule their own camping weekends, stay in their own campsites doing their own thing. Scouts in units and patrols can decide on their own what activities they want to partake.  I have no problem. But I believe BSA is a coed program. If the unit is going to participate in district-wide and BSA events, then I believe they should be coed. If they want girl-only programming above the unit level, I think BSA is not for them.

[Armymutt]

Here's the link to one of them on the council website: https://www.mccscouting.org/content/115391/2024-Girl-Camporee-of-the-East-Coast--Girl-Camporee-of-the-East-Coast
 

I would refuse to let my daughter go to one of these if offered in our council.  Every group faces challenges.  We wouldn't have a "Military Dependent Camporee", even though those kids routinely have to move, make new friends, get pushed around, don't get selected for Vigil, have a harder time making Eagle, etc.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

19 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

Here's the link to one of them on the council website: https://www.mccscouting.org/content/115391/2024-Girl-Camporee-of-the-East-Coast--Girl-Camporee-of-the-East-Coast
 

I would refuse to let my daughter go to one of these if offered in our council.  Every group faces challenges.  We wouldn't have a "Military Dependent Camporee", even though those kids routinely have to move, make new friends, get pushed around, don't get selected for Vigil, have a harder time making Eagle, etc.  

What does the "I" in DEI stand for?  Hmmmm...

[DannyG]

6 hours ago, Armymutt said:

Here's the link to one of them on the council website: https://www.mccscouting.org/content/115391/2024-Girl-Camporee-of-the-East-Coast--Girl-Camporee-of-the-East-Coast
 

I would refuse to let my daughter go to one of these if offered in our council.  Every group faces challenges.  We wouldn't have a "Military Dependent Camporee", even though those kids routinely have to move, make new friends, get pushed around, don't get selected for Vigil, have a harder time making Eagle, etc.  

Scouts is life. If there is a demand, somebody is going to meet it.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

6 hours ago, Armymutt said:

We wouldn't have a "Military Dependent Camporee", even though those kids routinely have to move, make new friends, get pushed around, don't get selected for Vigil, have a harder time making Eagle, etc.

Sounds like they could use some extra support. Nothing wrong with preparing to help people in groups if there's patterns in who has obstacles and why. What would help military dependent scouts?

[qwazse]

On 4/1/2024 at 1:07 PM, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Would you be willing to say more about this? 

@AwakeEnergyScouter, having grown wiup in a troop from a small-town (plenty of farm boys) and interacting with boys from troops of more urban areas, I kind of got the impression that our SM often picked the more remote campsites at summer camp and camporees. That might have been partly because some of the boys (yours truly excepted) were pretty rowdy. But it could have also been that some leaders absolutely needed more immediate access to showers, or needed weekends with a cabin (something our troop never spent a night in), or some other amenity. We took some pride in being that little bit more rugged. But, I think our SM just was pleased to be spared unnecessary drama, and letting the "city boys" have their first pick of location was one way to keep the peace.

As I became an older scout, I got the impression that other boys did not always get the same experience. I later met many men my age who describe their scouting experience as being boring or inequitable because their troop "didn't do that much" in terms of living adventurously. It seemed that they were "over sheltered" or the SM made things so simple for them that the experience was trivial. That should be a cautionary tale for us all.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

14 hours ago, qwazse said:

@AwakeEnergyScouter As I became an older scout, I got the impression that other boys did not always get the same experience. I later met many men my age who describe their scouting experience as being boring or inequitable because their troop "didn't do that much" in terms of living adventurously. It seemed that they were "over sheltered" or the SM made things so simple for them that the experience was trivial. That should be a cautionary tale for us all.

Thanks for sharing! I've heard this about GSUSA, but that it happens in BSA also was new to me. Indeed, a cautionary tale! Any troop that craves amenities may have a culture problem, irrespective of gender.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

I have to take back my outrage at that specific girls-only camporee. Just in case there was some additional context, I reached out to the organizer, and it turns out that the camporee is there to solve the problem of weak scoutcraft experience among both scouts and leaders. 

I had most of the facts, I just didn't put them together in a way to predict the problem because of my own scouting and family backpacking experience, including my current scouting involvement in a family pack with family dens where girls and boys learn the exact same scoutcraft skills, hike the same miles, set up the same tents, cook the same camp food, fish the same river, etc. I have so many memories of girls and boys together doing scouty stuff that I failed to imagine that the older girls who join Scouts BSA by and large didn't have scouting or personal outdoors life experience, because it's only been five years since girls have been allowed to join. I assumed that the girls who joined came in with that experience, but they didn't, at least not in that council. 

To make the lots-of-new-scouts problem worse, they got concentrated into girls-only units, many with new leaders who also didn't have scouting and apparently often outdoors life experience. In that council, many packs are still boys only (restricting the crossover pipeline for girls) and several charter partners refuse to charter girls units outright, so the membership growth in girls has been slower than they expected. Rather than the usual timeline of  join a troop in late winter to be comfortable going to summer camp with the troop that summer, the girls apparently tend to join in August - after summer camp - often with no previous camping experience whatsoever. So, they scheduled the camporee to be a 'soft landing' for girls who join in fall to learn core scoutcraft skills as well as leader training for things that we in mixed or boys' units mostly learn from watching it be done by others, like How to Hold A Board of Review and How to Be A Merit Badge Counselor, and Troop Committee Training. Based on the feedback, it seems effective both in teaching as well as getting the new scouts hooked on scouting.

So, my take is that the girls-only camporee is solving the problem of ensuring quality in units a lot of new scouts with brand new leaders, which is in large part created by requiring girls and boys to be in separate units. If the girls had been able to join existing units, this problem would have been solved organically, but because they weren't there was a training need, which the camporee is filling.

I initially thought the purpose of the camporee was a bit like the hogging of the good bathroom, but that's not the case. My bad.

[Armymutt]

So the boy units who have the exact same problem are left out again.  There are lots of boy units who have the exact same problem, especially in the inner city, like Charlotte where that council is located.  You would think that they would open it to all new troops.  Might be a great way to get boys off the streets and into the woods.