The BSA should get tough on scouts and scouters violating inclusion policies

[FireStone]

3 hours ago, scoutldr said:

Such is the culture we find ourselves in.  "Either you agree with me, or you will be neutralized and canceled."  There is no longer room for civil discourse.  I attribute it to the way those younger than us have been raised...never having been told "no" and rewarded for anything they do, noteworthy or not.  Temper tantrums worked growing up...why not continue into adulthood?

Do you really think there should be a "civil discourse" around whether or not some kids should be allowed in the BSA based on gender?

It's settled policy, no going back. So at this point, any discourse around allowing girls or LGBTQ+ kids in the BSA serves no constructive purpose. When it is done in the view of youth it violates YPT and should not be tolerated.

[RememberSchiff]

5 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Do you really think there should be a "civil discourse" around whether or not some kids should be allowed in the BSA based on gender?

It's settled policy, no going back. So at this point, any discourse around allowing girls or LGBTQ+ kids in the BSA serves no constructive purpose. When it is done in the view of youth it violates YPT and should not be tolerated.

Yes. A scoutlike and rational discussion please on all topics otherwise how will BSA policies and implementations improve and kids benefit. If there is a YP problem, it will not be tolerated.

Settled? IMHO, membership policy is still evolving.

[FireStone]

22 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Yes. A scoutlike and rational discussion please on all topics otherwise how will BSA policies and implementations improve and kids benefit. If there is a YP problem, it will not be tolerated.

Settled? IMHO, membership policy is still evolving.

I'm not sure what kind of rational discussion there could be on the topic of girls no longer being welcome in the BSA.

And as it relates to the scenarios I outlined in my OP, yes, it's a YPT issue. But that seems to be considered "hostility" to some here because I'm wording a YPT violation in terms that are apparently too harsh.

[skeptic]

It is a continuing mystery to me why some cannot simply separate themselves mentally, and if possible physically from things that annoy them.  We all hear the comment, "turn off the TV" on a fairly regular basis.  That more or less is the same thing.  IF it bothers you, separate as you can and then stay away as you choose.  In most cases nobody is forcing you to do anything other than be in the same vicinity.  JMHO of course.  

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

Reading the replies above, I can't help but notice that a) no one has disputed that opposition to scouting's promotion of feminist goals of gender equality is outside the Overton window in the US b) at least one person takes the view that membership policy is still evolving and c) there is yet another call to disengage from standing up for gender equality.

To me, this reads as confirmation - and the risk of confirmation bias is why I'm sharing the above as a bystand - of that the purpose of continuing to complain about girls and LGBTQIA+ people in the BSA is to get national to reverse allowing us membership by shifting the Overton window.

Is that correctly perceived? Are there people here who hope to drive us back out?

Edited March 24 by AwakeEnergyScouter
Forgot the tie-in to the movement as a whole

[FireStone]

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Is that correctly perceived? Are there people here who hope to drive us back out?

I can't figure out what other outcome anyone would be advocating for if they believe that the membership policies are not a settled matter.

And just for clarity I say "settled" to mean that they are set on paper and will not change, not that everyone is settled in their agreement with them.

Outside of this forum, yes, without a doubt there are vocal individuals who wish to see girls and/or LGBTQ+ youth removed from the Scouts BSA program. That much is clear if you read the comments on any social post the BSA makes with a girl or girl troop featured.

Or if you even run into one of these folks in-person, and they're often not afraid to say it out loud. Like the woman who passed by our popcorn table outside the local hardware store and said "Keep the 'boy' in Boy Scouts" to the group of young girls in Cub uniforms.

[RememberSchiff]

2 hours ago, FireStone said:

I'm not sure what kind of rational discussion there could be on the topic of girls no longer being welcome in the BSA.

And as it relates to the scenarios I outlined in my OP, yes, it's a YPT issue. But that seems to be considered "hostility" to some here because I'm wording a YPT violation in terms that are apparently too harsh.

IMHO, we are having a scoutlike, rational discussion here. There is more to discuss such as the ways to respond to misinformation and hate.

Membership policy being set - what discretion do units and CO's currently have? Can a CO say only our congregation can be members? Can a troop still be single gender? If a policy is set, can a member can speak out against the policy without detriment to individuals.

Censor and/or respond factually to online comments what is the BSA online policing policy on various platforms? I would very much like to hear Glen Pounder, BSA YP Executive, address the internet YP issues you mentioned.

"Enough is enough. Stand up for our scouts, BSA. When John hops in the chat to voice his opinions on LGBTQ+ youth, that's the point where someone should have stepped in and immediately shut that down, in the clearest terms possible, and stated that such statements do not align with the membership policies of the BSA. "  I can understand that visceral response but was there an opportunity lost here? Worth discussing?

Teach scouts how to safely to react to discrimination and hatred in a rational way attempt to defuse the situation, report. This CBS news interview with renowned birder Christian Cooper specifically 3:30 on speaks of a rational response.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/christian-cooper-the-extraordinary-birder/

Another $0.02

 

Edited March 24 by RememberSchiff

[yknot]

If BSA wants to tacitly make room in the tent for folks who don't really want to fully integrate girls, LGBTQ+, trans, etc., in their units, that's fine and their right as a private organization. But they have no problem pointing to all the DEI statements and actions they have taken since at least 2015 in response to sponsorship withdrawals, PR crises, and membership declines that say the opposite when marketing and promoting the program to the public. BSA should either address it or be honest and say DEI isn't consistently applied at the unit level.

[yknot]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Teach scouts how to safely to react to discrimination and hatred in a rational way attempt to defuse the situation, report. This CBS news interview with renowned birder Christian Cooper specifically 3:30 on speaks of a rational response.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/christian-cooper-the-extraordinary-birder/

Another $0.02

 

Chris was a grown adult and took a real risk doing what he did. He shouldn't have had to do that. I think that's where some of the confusion and frustration is coming from. Whether it's someone like Chris, an adult man trying to bird in Central Park in one of the biggest, most diverse cities in the world, and still encountering problems, or an insecure teenaged female, trans or gay scout just trying to find a unit to camp with...  what is really left to discuss at this point? Shouldn't they just be free to do and enjoy what anyone else does? 

[FireStone]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMHO, we are having a scoutlike, rational discussion here. There is more to discuss such as the ways to respond to misinformation and hate.

Membership policy being set - what discretion do units and CO's currently have? Can a CO say only our congregation can be members? Can a troop still be single gender? If a policy is set, can a member can speak out against the policy without detriment to individuals...

 

There certainly is room for discussion on those points, and on CO rights when it comes to membership, etc. My concern here is not about individual units, or CO discretion when it comes to who they allow to be a part of their chartered unit. This is about the broader ongoing harassment about girls being in the BSA at all, from people who very clearly would like to see girls excluded from the Scouts BSA program entirely.

[skeptic]

The sad thing with this is that historically, BSA has been very inclusive overall.  They were far ahead in acceptance of other races, especially Blacks, though dealing with the larger society was a real challenge.  Yet even in the South, there are historical proof that some found a way for them to be involved.  Similarly, when the Gay issue hit the fan, the issue was forced on BSA from society, rather than BSA making it an issue.  I still feel that the Dale fiasco was brought on by people outside the actual unit and it members.  They were aware, but simply had not felt it worth worrying about.  Then when the youth went to college and the unit's larger community found out, the trouble makers had to push things.  At that point, IMO, it should have been put in the hands of the unit and National and the local Council should have left it alone.  The unit had already given a silent acceptance, so it was not them with the problem.  

     But, that is the norm in our overly nosy and selfish society.  Some just cannot let others live as they choose, but must push the limits and cause turmoil.  Our 102 year old unit has had at least two Gays over time of whom I am aware, and likely more.  But it has not been an issue because they just were part of the group as far as we knew.  And they did not try to push themselves on others.  Then it would have had to have a solution.  And that is really where we are with girls in the program.  Supervision, common sense, mentoring and following the intent of the foundational tenets, the thing we call Scout Spirit.  

Again, just my view based on age and exposure to various societal realities with little interference from overbearing adults.  

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

And let's also not pretend that girls and boys scouting together is some radical, newfangled thing that's actually outside the US Overton window that some radical radicals are trying to force the BSA and every single individual inside the BSA to adopt as part of a daring cultural war caper to ruin the BSA and/or America. Like... Where is this narrative even coming from?

In case someone needs to hear this, the pack we joined was in the family pack pilot (so parents approve of scouting together and committee voted to enter the pilot), and every single committee member with a son in the pack has at some point or other expressed either gratitude for the girls being there or feminist pride in the girls' achievements. When we joined, they were already ignoring the separate dens by gender rule and the effective dens were just by age. The girls in our pack are actively wanted and the parents have self-selected into that because it's right on the "Family Pack" label. I had to do zero - absolutely none - pitching for gender equality or DEI to the committee, they were already acting out what I think should be done when we showed up, which of course is why we stayed and invested time and money into the pack. (I was asked to join the committee, and asked to take over as CM when the old CM wanted to transition to CC.) Everyone on the committee was a scout themselves in their youth, so this is not some outsider takeover to make it a family pack. The parent so happy about a female sweep of the Pinewood Derby podium in Women's History Month is an Eagle. There are absolutely male BSA members who want girls and LGBTQIA+ folks in too - in his case, the same reasons as mine. The committee is basically a friend group.

Speaking of unit membership policies - I haven't heard a single peep from anyone ever in the direction of banning single-gender units, and yet the question of whether single gender packs and troops are allowed keeps being asked even though the answer to that is also settled. I don't get why anyone would want that but apparently people do, and as long as them doing it doesn't interfere with my scouts' ability to scout together it doesn't hurt my scouts in any way if they do that. The only need to oppose single-gender units would come if they struggle with loyalty to their fellow scouts of the opposite gender. This shouldn't be a problem. I would like to think that if it occurs, it can be solved by working with the Scout Law some more rather than banning a unit type that there is demand for.

So, like FireStone was emphasizing, what's notable isn't so much that logistics and membership policy details could change but that there does seem to be a group of scouts and scouters who are trying to get certain scouts to quit, and that this seems to be nominally tolerated by the BSA and the BSA scouting community. I mean... Do I really spell out why that's contrary to the Scout Law? Surely not.

[RememberSchiff]

1 hour ago, FireStone said:

There certainly is room for discussion on those points, and on CO rights when it comes to membership, etc. My concern here is not about individual units, or CO discretion when it comes to who they allow to be a part of their chartered unit. This is about the broader ongoing harassment about girls being in the BSA at all, from people who very clearly would like to see girls excluded from the Scouts BSA program entirely.

I am not a lawyer. From your OP, I thought the YP issue was bullying. As I understand, harassment is a more serious crime requiring more judication beyond removal from social media or BSA.  Again not a lawyer so my phrasing may be off.

Edited March 25 by RememberSchiff

[FireStone]

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

I am not a lawyer. From your OP, I thought the YP issue was bullying. As I understand, harassment is a more serious crime requiring more judication beyond removal from social media or BSA.  Again not a lawyer so my phrasing may be off.

I'm not a lawyer either and to be honest I'm not sure where the line is drawn between bullying and harassment, or what the overlap is. I used both terms here because I think the repeated nature of some of the offending comments (a few folks seem to be making negative comments on numerous posts), it looks like a campaign of harassment to me. But that's just my opinion, and not legally informed in any way.

[InquisitiveScouter]

57 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I'm not a lawyer either and to be honest I'm not sure where the line is drawn between bullying and harassment, or what the overlap is. I used both terms here because I think the repeated nature of some of the offending comments (a few folks seem to be making negative comments on numerous posts), it looks like a campaign of harassment to me. But that's just my opinion, and not legally informed in any way.

The line for bullying and harassment is at the point where someone is addressing comments at youth, and you ask them to stop.  When they don't, it crosses the line.

If you just don't like what they are saying, or if their statements are general, and not directed at anyone specifically, it isn't bullying... it is just them being a horrible person.

In a public forum, people have the freedom of speech.  In a public forum, you have the right to not listen.

The forum you spoke of in your OP was not a public forum.  (And this is not a public forum either...)  Could/should someone have stepped in?  That was primarily up to whomever owns/moderates that forum.  If you thought it was egregious or threatening, did you speak up there?