Coed Troops Survey

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

1 hour ago, rallybug said:

I wonder if they've talked to the other countries within WoSM that have been co-ed for years/decades (1988 for Cubs and Scouts in Australia, 1992 for Cubs and Scouts in UK, 1989 for New Zealand, etc) for their input?

I wish they would. In fact, I bet I'm not the only old WOSM scout in the BSA who's scouted in another NSO where everyone scouts together and has for many decades. Totally doable. 

[qwazse]

6 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I wish they would. In fact, I bet I'm not the only old WOSM scout in the BSA who's scouted in another NSO where everyone scouts together and has for many decades. Totally doable. 

… doable, as long as BSA is willing to take another membership hit over the next few decades …

We’re not scouts UK, and litigation waits in the wings for any reports of sexual assault in any American organization that promotes both sexes camping together as a matter of course.

I personally believe that a coed troop could be a healthy option for many communities. But the specter of abuse lawsuits will linger for quite some time.

[skeptic]

2 minutes ago, qwazse said:

… doable, as long as BSA is willing to take another membership hit over the next few decades …

We’re not scouts UK, and litigation waits in the wings for any reports of sexual assault in any American organization that promotes both sexes camping together as a matter of course.

I personally believe that a coed troop could be a healthy option for many communities. But the specter of abuse lawsuits will linger for quite some time.

And it is that litigation shadow that is the problem, and why in this country it will linger unless we fix our broken legal sysem.

 

[Eagle1993]

Coed camping already occurs with venturing and Packs.  So, we are really only talking about adding coed camping for 11, 12 and 13 yo.  In addition, coed camping exists in those ages as linked Troops share camping sites all the time, including at BSA events. 

Clarification... When I say coed, I mean boys and girls camping at same site.  Now, if you mean in the same tent, I agree that won't happen for a long time.

Edited March 21 by Eagle1993
Clarification added

[qwazse]

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

…

Clarification... When I say coed, I mean boys and girls camping at same site.  Now, if you mean in the same tent, I agree that won't happen for a long time.

It depends on how you define “tent”. At times my venturers slept under the stars. I didn’t bother to measure the distance between bedding to make sure they were the equivalent of two tent walls apart. (Although truth be told the sexes segregated on their own on most occasions.)

It’s a big country, and National simply has no way to enforce a common culture on this.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

11 hours ago, qwazse said:

We’re not scouts UK, and litigation waits in the wings for any reports of sexual assault in any American organization that promotes both sexes camping together as a matter of course.

This could be me not culturally getting it, but why would US American young men be more prone to sexual assault than European young men? What does it mean, exactly, to not be Scouts UK? How is the BSA significantly different to Scouts UK? (Why Scouts UK in particular?)

I will share an off-the-cuff reaction someone in our pack had to how my patrol camped, everyone including leaders in a single big canvas tent. "That's probably much safer [than BSA YPT]". And I think they might be right, because the audience for any CSA is literally everyone there. That's pretty darn hard for a perp to pull off.

I used to gripe about the weight when we were backpacking, but in retrospect that might have been minor compared to a perp being able to isolate you in a tent. TBH it didn't occur to me.

Don't get me wrong, the last thing scouting in the US needs is more lawsuits, but I'm honestly not sure how scouting together raises the risk of that, or even more importantly, there being harm to sue about in the first place.

[skeptic]

20 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

This could be me not culturally getting it, but why would US American young men be more prone to sexual assault than European young men? What does it mean, exactly, to not be Scouts UK? How is the BSA significantly different to Scouts UK? (Why Scouts UK in particular?)

I will share an off-the-cuff reaction someone in our pack had to how my patrol camped, everyone including leaders in a single big canvas tent. "That's probably much safer [than BSA YPT]". And I think they might be right, because the audience for any CSA is literally everyone there. That's pretty darn hard for a perp to pull off.

I used to gripe about the weight when we were backpacking, but in retrospect that might have been minor compared to a perp being able to isolate you in a tent. TBH it didn't occur to me.

Don't get me wrong, the last thing scouting in the US needs is more lawsuits, but I'm honestly not sure how scouting together raises the risk of that, or even more importantly, there being harm to sue about in the first place.

The issue is unique to our society and legal system.  Most of the world recognizes that bad people are part of the larger society and precautions are warranted  to take note.  They are not paranoid that somehow it is being platted by every person around the corner or that does not fit the accepted stereotypes.  In a way it too many people seeing shadows and believing the worst.  

 

Edited March 21 by skeptic

[InquisitiveScouter]

36 minutes ago, skeptic said:

The issue is unique to our society and legal system.  Most of the world recognizes that bad people are part of the larger society and precautions are warranted  to take note.  They are not paranoid that somehow it is being platted by every person around the corner or that does not fit the accepted stereotypes.  In a way it too many people seeing shadows and believing the worst.  

 

And not enough, or quick enough punishment of the offenders.

We are seeing the rate of our decline increase...  coming to a neighborhood near you...

 

[fred8033]

On 3/16/2024 at 12:02 PM, Eagle1993 said:

... I recommended allowing coed Troops but keeping girls patrols.  ...

In my view, this is just not controversial anymore.  The world changed a long time ago.  BSA also changed; just some pretend it hasn't.  We've had female scoutmasters, female summer camp staff and female professional scouters for decades.  Now, we pretend to have separate boys and girls troops, but most interact regularly.  They definitely interact at district / council functions.  ... We are way past BSA is a boys only club.  

If boys-only troop wants to exist, more power to them.  Go for it.

If boys only patrols want to exist, fine.  ... I fear a hard single-gender patrols a rule will just be circumvented just like the current separate boy troop and girl troops that are really interacting together.  

 

Scouting is about adventure, skills, fun with benefits for leadership, independence, responsibility, etc, etc. ...    I do not see gender as a deal breaker.  

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

If boys-only troop wants to exist, more power to them.  Go for it.

If boys only patrols want to exist, fine.  ... I fear a hard single-gender patrols a rule will just be circumvented just like the current separate boy troop and girl troops that are really interacting together.  

I think the choice for single-gender troops and patrols is the right approach. 

Barry

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I think the choice for single-gender troops and patrols is the right approach. 

Barry

I think the best approach would be to give the CO's options, and let them decide how they wish to structure their Scouting program...

Just like they already do with selection of adults, religious and character requirements, and whether they have a girl Troop under their umbrella.

There are many that would wish to stay with the single-gender approach.

There are many that would integrate.

[skeptic]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I think the best approach would be to give the CO's options, and let them decide how they wish to structure their Scouting program...

Just like they already do with selection of adults, religious and character requirements, and whether they have a girl Troop under their umbrella.

There are many that would wish to stay with the single-gender approach.

There are many that would integrate.

Are you suggesting common sense enter into the game?  🤣

[InquisitiveScouter]

14 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Are you suggesting common sense enter into the game?  🤣

God forbid? 😜 

Edited March 21 by InquisitiveScouter

[RememberSchiff]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I think the best approach would be to give the CO's options, and let them decide how they wish to structure their Scouting program...

Just like they already do with selection of adults, religious and character requirements, and whether they have a girl Troop under their umbrella.

There are many that would wish to stay with the single-gender approach.

There are many that would integrate.

Local option ...step by step.

[qwazse]

On 3/21/2024 at 10:43 AM, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

This could be me not culturally getting it, but why would US American young men be more prone to sexual assault than European young men? What does it mean, exactly, to not be Scouts UK? How is the BSA significantly different to Scouts UK? (Why Scouts UK in particular?)I

They could be less prone, but the data is spotty (criminology is hard). It could be that CSA is more frequent among European youth, but here’s a report that shows how widely risk estimates vary in Nordic countries https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10538712.2015.1108944.

Here is the most recent examination of CSA from a nation wide youth survey in the US https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/su/su7201a8.htm when this year’s data are available (probably by next year), I’ll try to plot out the responses to abuse-related questions for us all.

At the moment Scouts UK is on the ascent finally having recovered the male membership to 1990 levels. But, it also has not faced litigation that BSA has, and its debt profile is much less than BSA’s. Nevertheless, it has been the model that many of us pay attention to because less gets lost in translation.