Coed Troops Survey

[Eagle1993]

I just completed a scouting survey.  It included standard questions and asked for recommendations.  It has additional questions for Scoutmasters that dug into collecting feedback about how girls troops are run (are they really independent or integrated and if integrated how integrated are they).  It then had questions about recommendations if BSA should consider coed Troops and if they were coed, how integrated should the integrated Troops be managed.

Hopefully this is really a survey to get input before decisions but I know that is not always the case.  However, I can say that BSA must be at least considering changing how girls are integrated.

FWIW, I recommended allowing coed Troops but keeping girls patrols.  I felt like that would open up scouting to more girls but still allow some space for coharts to bond.  

Edited March 16 by Eagle1993
Typo

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 3/16/2024 at 1:02 PM, Eagle1993 said:

I just completed a scouting survey.  It included standard questions and asked for recommendations.  It has additional questions for Scoutmasters that dug into collecting feedback about how girls troops are run (are they really independent or integrated and if integrated how integrated are they).  It then had questions about recommendations if BSA should consider coed Troops and if they were coed, how integrated should the integrated Troops be managed.

Hopefully this is really a survey to get input before decisions but I know that is not always the case.  However, I can say that BSA must be at least considering changing how girls are integrated.

FWIW, I recommended allowing coed Troops but keeping girls patrols.  I felt like that would open up scouting to more girls but still allow some space for coharts to bond.  

Funny how we discuss these things here, and voila!  National starts "testing the waters" on this... 

 

[OaklandAndy]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Funny how we discuss these things here, and voila!  National starts "testing the waters" on this... 

 

There's a mole among us...

[scoutldr]

1 hour ago, OaklandAndy said:

There's a mole among us...

I know at least one member who is on the National Staff.  IF they are smart, they would be regular lurkers here, and heed what we have to say.  For some of us, our Scouting experience goes back to the early 60s.

[skeptic]

32 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

I know at least one member who is on the National Staff.  IF they are smart, they would be regular lurkers here, and heed what we have to say.  For some of us, our Scouting experience goes back to the early 60s.

Since 1955, with a few gaps.  Sequential since 1975 when reupped as adult.  

I mean, we even marched with dummy rifles in local parades with a VFW sponsor, and we rode in the backs of trucks, mostly open.  Pack frames were often home made, or heavy wood, and bedrolls, rather than sleeping bags were fairly common, especially in our unit with VFW who furnished us all wool mummy bags. Yet, most of the past that I remember is familiar to today, just with modern adjustments.  Moaning for the old days is nonsense, other than the disappearance of common sense and taking responsibility without being forced.  But that is why Scouting is still needed.

 

Edited March 18 by skeptic
Old guy edit.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

Moaning for the old days is nonsense, other than the disappearance of common sense and taking responsibility without being forced. 

Well, considering that the youth of today have been terrible since the days of Aristotle, I'll say it could have gotten much worse 😂

Are you familiar with the book Factfulness by Hans Rosling?

He's got a few TED talks that are lowkey inspiring in terms of building a better world. We in high-income countries don't feel it day to day, but the world is actually a much better place now than in the past. Even here, things are better in a lot of ways. It's good to remind oneself sometimes.

[skeptic]

Thanks, you are of course right in the general way.  We have it much better today than in the past.  That in itself may be a contributor to the seeming lack of too many to fend for themselves.  There is no doubt that many young people are babied so badly that they do not have a clue of reality in the wider world.  At the same time, some of us on here can extoll the benefits many of our mentees have garnered from being asked to think and act on their own.  I keep getting reminded that while I too often get annoyed at the absolutely ludicrous ideas with which the proverbial helicopter adults confront us pop up, there are many examples of youth that inspire and give hope.  And we have the privilege to interact with more of them than some adults.  Just need to not get distracted by the brash foolishness.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

I keep getting reminded that while I too often get annoyed at the absolutely ludicrous ideas with which the proverbial helicopter adults confront us pop up, there are many examples of youth that inspire and give hope.  And we have the privilege to interact with more of them than some adults.  Just need to not get distracted by the brash foolishness.

I think you're right on the money here. Part of the reason things have turned out fine generation after generation is that the youth were guided skillfully enough by elders who didn't give up. The youthful perspective is important, but so is that of the elders. Both are needed. So it's important to rouse wakeful energy and confidence when they start wanting. We can make a difference, there is a point, even if youth don't show it as you do the helping!

Also, youthful mistakes as well as parenting mistakes tend to correct themselves with more reality feedback. Can't imagine people who being parents to job interviews get many offers, and most likely get told point blank it's completely inappropriate eventually. Rough and unfair in a sense, but... From a larger history POV, probably corrects itself.

[Eagle1993]

Perhaps it is just my highschool, but as a parent of a teenager I have to say expectations of what teens must do far exceed what was expected of teens 20, 30, 50 years ago. 

First, they are expected to take college level courses in high school.  When I was a kid, I took 2 AP courses, now ... If you want any chance to get selected by a highly selected university you need at least 8.  Plus you need to have nearly perfect grades and an ACT/SAT that is very high.  

Then look at sports.  When I was a kid you can simply walk on to most teams and the sport lasts the season.  Now, the best teams are not even at high school and nearly all teams except you dedicate yourself to that sport all year (and expect to travel).

Add in the expectation you also have a job, volunteer, become president of a couple of clubs, etc.

Free time for far too many kids is rare.  They are jumping around from studying for an AP test to travel baseball to mock trials, etc. 

Participation trophies are a thing in the past.  My kids participated in years of various sports, never received a trophy and were told they were no good for travel and should simply quit.

As a parent of a couple of kids today I think the lazy argument is that kids today are babied.  Actually, in many ways, I think kids today are abused.   Expectations are far too high and many sacrifice childhood to become mini adults at age 9.  The kids that don't are left feeling like they are failures. It's incredibly sad.

Scouting is the one organization where you are not judged if you are not the "best" at something and you don't leave feeling like you failed life just because you didn't ace an AP test while also throwing a baseball in the mid 90s at 16. 

I honestly think that is why we need scouting more than ever.  It allows kids to try a variety of activities, fail, learn , have fun and just be kids.  Everything else is rushing them into adulthood.

Edited March 19 by Eagle1993

[yknot]

8 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Perhaps it is just my highschool, but as a parent of a teenager I have to say expectations of what teens must do far exceed what was expected of teens 20, 30, 50 years ago. 

First, they are expected to take college level courses in high school.  When I was a kid, I took 2 AP courses, now ... If you want any chance to get selected by a highly selected university you need at least 8.  Plus you need to have nearly perfect grades and an ACT/SAT that is very high.  

Then look at sports.  When I was a kid you can simply walk on to most teams and the sport lasts the season.  Now, the best teams are not even at high school and nearly all teams except you dedicate yourself to that sport all year (and expect to travel).

Add in the expectation you also have a job, volunteer, become president of a couple of clubs, etc.

Free time for far too many kids is rare.  They are jumping around from studying for an AP test to travel baseball to mock trials, etc. 

Participation trophies are a thing in the past.  My kids participated in years of various sports, never received a trophy and were told they were no good for travel and should simply quit.

As a parent of a couple of kids today I think the lazy argument is that kids today are babied.  Actually, in many ways, I think kids today are abused.   Expectations are far too high and many sacrifice childhood to become mini adults at age 9.  The kids that don't are left feeling like they are failures. It's incredibly sad.

Scouting is the one organization where you are not judged if you are not the "best" at something and you don't leave feeling like you failed life just because you didn't ace an AP test while also throwing a baseball in the mid 90s at 16. 

I honestly think that is why we need scouting more than ever.  It allows kids to try a variety of activities, fail, learn , have fun and just be kids.  Everything else is rushing them into adulthood.

There are incredible pressures on kids today, but I'm not so sure scouting is much of an antidote to that anymore either. There can be just as much pressure to be "the best" and to achieve Eagle, and if kids don't or aren't as interested in the advancement process -- "First Class, First Year" -- they can feel like failures the same as they can in any other arena. It's an adult driven disease that has permeated almost every aspect of childhood -- first, best, most, etc. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

There are incredible pressures on kids today, but I'm not so sure scouting is much of an antidote to that anymore either. There can be just as much pressure to be "the best" and to achieve Eagle, and if kids don't or aren't as interested in the advancement process -- "First Class, First Year" -- they can feel like failures the same as they can in any other arena. It's an adult driven disease that has permeated almost every aspect of childhood -- first, best, most, etc. 

Ah, here is where it gets actionable for us scouters. I agree completely. 

Advancement can become "scouting materialism", in the sense that you're talking about. If scouts weigh their own worth as a human being based on their advancement, something's not quite right, but we're the right folks to look for that and correct as necessary. If nothing else, if others around us don't see the problem, we can just straight up point out the misunderstanding to the scout. Their essential worth as a human being does not depend on scout rank or advancement at all, and never did. Just being together and having wild fun is where the fun memories are at, anyway. 🏕️🏞️⛰️🎒🥾

[skeptic]

10 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Perhaps it is just my highschool, but as a parent of a teenager I have to say expectations of what teens must do far exceed what was expected of teens 20, 30, 50 years ago. 

First, they are expected to take college level courses in high school.  When I was a kid, I took 2 AP courses, now ... If you want any chance to get selected by a highly selected university you need at least 8.  Plus you need to have nearly perfect grades and an ACT/SAT that is very high.  

Then look at sports.  When I was a kid you can simply walk on to most teams and the sport lasts the season.  Now, the best teams are not even at high school and nearly all teams except you dedicate yourself to that sport all year (and expect to travel).

Add in the expectation you also have a job, volunteer, become president of a couple of clubs, etc.

Free time for far too many kids is rare.  They are jumping around from studying for an AP test to travel baseball to mock trials, etc. 

Participation trophies are a thing in the past.  My kids participated in years of various sports, never received a trophy and were told they were no good for travel and should simply quit.

As a parent of a couple of kids today I think the lazy argument is that kids today are babied.  Actually, in many ways, I think kids today are abused.   Expectations are far too high and many sacrifice childhood to become mini adults at age 9.  The kids that don't are left feeling like they are failures. It's incredibly sad.

Scouting is the one organization where you are not judged if you are not the "best" at something and you don't leave feeling like you failed life just because you didn't ace an AP test while also throwing a baseball in the mid 90s at 16. 

I honestly think that is why we need scouting more than ever.  It allows kids to try a variety of activities, fail, learn , have fun and just be kids.  Everything else is rushing them into adulthood.

"Perhaps it is just my high school, but as a parent of a teenager I have to say expectations of what teens must do far exceed what was expected of teens 20, 30, 50 years ago. "

While you make some cogent points, I believe the issue is an adult issue here as well.  The expectations are those put there by adults, and the pressure is generally brought by the adults.  Honors and AP classes, from my experience as a long term sub are not doing what they were intended to do.  The grades are not accurately weighted by peer comparisons, but instead biased to higher grades, A and B mostly, because the youth are in those classes, so they must deserve those grades.  Now is this the system, the parental threats when their child does not meet the parental plateau, or is it a combo of many things?  For about five years I sat on interviews for freshman level scholarships for entering students at UCR.  An interesting pattern came out as we went through the process.  Often the highest weighted GPA was not indicative of how well they might do.  Often a high GPA without the weighted grades proved to be more definitive when we spoke to the students face to face.  In my view, at the time, too many of the candidates had a bit of an attitude, one that suggested they felt superior to those with lower, on paper, academic students.  And we seldom rated the highest test scores and GPA's as the best overall, though in a few cases it was a real factor, and the interviews proved it.  Too many young people are written off by adults for various reasons, and as such they choose to just toss in the towel, so to speak.  

     One of the things I tell my Scouts when discussing Spirit and its components is the part of the Oath that says "I will do my best".  I try to stress that is their best, and that they need to measure themselves as they know they are, that they are doing as well as they are able at the moment.  "It is their best"; not that of some other youth, or that of their parent.  Schools too often write the students off without payin attention to the whole person, or the peripherals.  One of my assignments in working up to student teaching was to sit for a quarter with an individual student in a middle school reading class.  He was in seventh grade and reading at about the second to third grade level, and he was doing poorly across the board.  His attitude was one of acceptance that he was "not bright".  His parents both were professional, and he had two older siblings that were honor students  Looking at his cumulative files, it was obvious that the reading issue was there from the get go, starting with kindergarten/first grade notes from teachers.  After two days working with him one on one, I noticed that he seemed to be holding the book at odd positions, and was moving his head a lot as he struggled.  I did that in third grad or so, and that was when I was given an eye test, which I failed badly.  I got glasses and everything changed, though I had struggled to read anyway, and was way ahead of my peers.  But it became so much easier.  Boy got glasses, as his parents immediately followed up, and he move to grade level within a semester.  And his grades improve across the board.  His failure syndrome was almost winning, and could have.  Why did others not see the constant notes about reading issues while he was younger?  Why did the adults around him basically fail him?  That is where we too often find ourselves.  Few youth are automatic failures.  They become that way because we as adults too often write them off too quickly because they are problems.  

     One of my best Scout successes never made it past first class.  But he was the best first class scout around.  And he made it into Army Ranger School and retired as a Lt. Col, serving in a number of our police actions of the past couple decades.  For him, Scouting helped him show he was not a failure and could do things some of his peers could not.  The best part of scouting is when we actually butt out as adults and watch the youth take charge.  Is it hard?  Definitely.  But twenty years later, we can see the success, and that is what counts.  

[Eagledad]

2 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Ah, here is where it gets actionable for us scouters. I agree completely. 

Advancement can become "scouting materialism", in the sense that you're talking about. If scouts weigh their own worth as a human being based on their advancement, something's not quite right, but we're the right folks to look for that and correct as necessary. If nothing else, if others around us don't see the problem, we can just straight up point out the misunderstanding to the scout. Their essential worth as a human being does not depend on scout rank or advancement at all, and never did. Just being together and having wild fun is where the fun memories are at, anyway. 🏕️🏞️⛰️🎒🥾

Here is a good start from an SPL.

http://scoutmaster.org/boy led troop.pdf

[skeptic]

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

"Perhaps it is just my high school, but as a parent of a teenager I have to say expectations of what teens must do far exceed what was expected of teens 20, 30, 50 years ago. "

While you make some cogent points, I believe the issue is an adult issue here as well.  The expectations are those put there by adults, and the pressure is generally brought by the adults.  Honors and AP classes, from my experience as a long term sub are not doing what they were intended to do.  The grades are not accurately weighted by peer comparisons, but instead biased to higher grades, A and B mostly, because the youth are in those classes, so they must deserve those grades.  Now is this the system, the parental threats when their child does not meet the parental plateau, or is it a combo of many things?  For about five years I sat on interviews for freshman level scholarships for entering students at UCR.  An interesting pattern came out as we went through the process.  Often the highest weighted GPA was not indicative of how well they might do.  Often a high GPA without the weighted grades proved to be more definitive when we spoke to the students face to face.  In my view, at the time, too many of the candidates had a bit of an attitude, one that suggested they felt superior to those with lower, on paper, academic students.  And we seldom rated the highest test scores and GPA's as the best overall, though in a few cases it was a real factor, and the interviews proved it.  Too many young people are written off by adults for various reasons, and as such they choose to just toss in the towel, so to speak.  

     One of the things I tell my Scouts when discussing Spirit and its components is the part of the Oath that says "I will do my best".  I try to stress that is their best, and that they need to measure themselves as they know they are, that they are doing as well as they are able at the moment.  "It is their best"; not that of some other youth, or that of their parent.  Schools too often write the students off without payin attention to the whole person, or the peripherals.  One of my assignments in working up to student teaching was to sit for a quarter with an individual student in a middle school reading class.  He was in seventh grade and reading at about the second to third grade level, and he was doing poorly across the board.  His attitude was one of acceptance that he was "not bright".  His parents both were professional, and he had two older siblings that were honor students  Looking at his cumulative files, it was obvious that the reading issue was there from the get go, starting with kindergarten/first grade notes from teachers.  After two days working with him one on one, I noticed that he seemed to be holding the book at odd positions, and was moving his head a lot as he struggled.  I did that in third grad or so, and that was when I was given an eye test, which I failed badly.  I got glasses and everything changed, though I had struggled to read anyway, and was way ahead of my peers.  But it became so much easier.  Boy got glasses, as his parents immediately followed up, and he move to grade level within a semester.  And his grades improve across the board.  His failure syndrome was almost winning, and could have.  Why did others not see the constant notes about reading issues while he was younger?  Why did the adults around him basically fail him?  That is where we too often find ourselves.  Few youth are automatic failures.  They become that way because we as adults too often write them off too quickly because they are problems.  

     One of my best Scout successes never made it past first class.  But he was the best first class scout around.  And he made it into Army Ranger School and retired as a Lt. Col, serving in a number of our police actions of the past couple decades.  For him, Scouting helped him show he was not a failure and could do things some of his peers could not.  The best part of scouting is when we actually butt out as adults and watch the youth take charge.  Is it hard?  Definitely.  But twenty years later, we can see the success, and that is what counts.  

As an added mention:  Today, the noted man is a father with two kids.  His daughter just earned her Gold Award in GS and is an honor student, soccer player and part-time referee, and has been a national GS representative.  His son is now a Boy Scout and has just completed Life, also an honor student, musician, and winner of science fairs.  

 

[rallybug]

On 3/16/2024 at 11:02 AM, Eagle1993 said:

I just completed a scouting survey.  It included standard questions and asked for recommendations.  It has additional questions for Scoutmasters that dug into collecting feedback about how girls troops are run (are they really independent or integrated and if integrated how integrated are they).  It then had questions about recommendations if BSA should consider coed Troops and if they were coed, how integrated should the integrated Troops be managed.

Hopefully this is really a survey to get input before decisions but I know that is not always the case.  However, I can say that BSA must be at least considering changing how girls are integrated.

FWIW, I recommended allowing coed Troops but keeping girls patrols.  I felt like that would open up scouting to more girls but still allow some space for coharts to bond.  

I wonder if they've talked to the other countries within WoSM that have been co-ed for years/decades (1988 for Cubs and Scouts in Australia, 1992 for Cubs and Scouts in UK, 1989 for New Zealand, etc) for their input?